TRANSGENDER: NPHC and NALFO question
 

This question is for opinions from people in NPHC, NALFO, or any other coed Greek council.

John Doe pledges Fraternity X. Later, he becomes transgender and is now Jane Doe.

Assuming he meets the qualifications and would receive an affirmative vote of the chapter, would the council's rules allow him to be initiated in a second NPHC or NALFO organization?

This is just opinions right, or do you only want someone who's very familiar with the written regulations?

Just my opinion, I don't think so. The NPHC is still aligned with the organization's rules and regulations. We would not allow dual NPHC membership. It's not about the person's gender. I would think being previously initiated in another NPHC org negates Jane Doe's eligibility.

Opinions are fine. :) I don't have the bylaws in front of me or anything, so I don't know exactly what the wording is.

I was talking to a frat brother about this moments ago, and we're both rather progressive, so the actual "would we vote on a transgender person" wasn't the issue, but more whether the will of the members of the organization would clarify the NPHC rules before the rules clarified themselves.

I am sure that the wording in most Constitutions and By-Laws stipulate no dual membership between fraternities or between sororities. I would be quite impressed if forethought was made to include sororities in that or vice versa. At one time, it was just a point of 'common sense' or règle du jour, but those times have certainly changed. All this to say.... depending on the organization's rules, it MAY be possible.

There are no rules/bylaws in NALFO that discuss this, as membership is handled by individual organizations.

I'd think that most fraternities/sororities would take this on a case by case basis due to the specific transgender reassignment.

I agree with wargame because I believe the dual membership provision is qualified with either fraternity or sorority depending on the organization. In that way, I am not sure that they would be legally disqualified to seek membership.

That being said, I do not think that attaining membership in the organization that corresponds to the new gender would be at all easy in the case of the NPHC; if the transgender status is known.

So it would become a question of de facto, rather than ipso facto, disqualification.

Lawyers, did I get the terminology right?

Very interesting; I was just talking to a friend about this topic (well a variant of this topic). I believe it was said, but I don't believe anyone's bylaws include one joining a sorority after pledging a fraternity...

Suppose you were a Phi Beta Sigma, then became a woman, subsequently pledging Zeta Phi Beta.

You'd be your brother's sister. (I think)

Considering today's climate, maybe our organizations should take a serious look into it. Everything that used to be "common sense" just doesn't apply in 2009. Nothing is "common" anymore.

To answer the question, I think the second NPHC organization part of any org's bylaws are simple and finite. If you've been XYZ, you can't switch up and be ABC. Honestly, I don't care if you switched genders. There's no switching into Sigma if you already have XYZ near to your heart.

And whether they truly had it near to their heart is of no consequence. :p

I agree with you about changing times and "common sense." The NPHC rules forbid joining more than one NPHC org, as well as joining NPC and IFC and then pursuing NPHC. This would apply to joining a fraternity and a sorority, as well. The language will just need to be more explicit than implied.

;) :D

I think the availability of graduate/alumni chapters in NPHC should prevent someone from having to go through something like this. If a person knows s/he will be going through gender reassignment, why not wait until after transitioning?

^^^ But who's to say an 18-year old, second semester freshman who pledges an NPHC org knows at that age that they're going to go through with a gender transition?

It has to be in the back of his/her mind that this is something that will eventually happen. If a male feels like a female in every other aspect, why would associations be different?

Situations vary.

Our organizations aren't charged with caring about that aspect of it. We need to have safe guards to protect our membership and our organizations, assuming that this may become more of an issue years from now.

If a biological female wants to be socially recognized as a "he," HE should not be eligible for membership. These are sororities for WOMEN and not just females.

If said person makes the change after initiation, they should stand to revoke their membership. It isn't about the person's sexual orientation or how they dress. It is with their gender identity. There are other ways that people can have their membership revoked.

All in all, it's pretty safe to say that our organizations are thinking about this already, especially since this news story was released.

This is the point I was going for.

True. I'm hoping some of the newer nationals are thinking about this, too.

Especially those organizations that consider themselves "safe havens from the status quo and rejection letters."

:)

Not necessarily. Not all people may be aware or understand their "true nature". Much less know that they can "transition" at some point. Especially for someone as young as 18.

Of course I know that I'm swerving, but you've always been good to me when I asked sincere questions in the past:

Don't you think that the national identities (I mean something like "images," but more substantial and true of the ideals of the groups) of the individual NPHC groups would, in almost all cases, keep a transgendered person from fully identifying with a group for his or her birth gender? (I apologize for not being sure of the term. I mean first biological gender, before any transitioning.)

For example, I have a hard time thinking that someone who felt biologically a man would be interested in joining a women's group in 99% of the cases. I know we've got the case in the news recently, but I think it's pretty exceptional.

And in an unrelated question, what percentage of NPHC members do you think would consider a transgendered person worthy of membership? (I'll go ahead and say that I think the vast majority of NPC members and IFC members would be uncomfortable with a transgendered member, although not a vast majority of NPC/IFC GreekChat users willing to speak up in a thread about the issue will feel this way.)

I don't think that these members find the transgendered less than human or anything super horrible, but because my perception from the outside is that a member might take seriously the idea of being an Alpha Phi Alpha man or a Delta Sigma Theta woman so that someone with any gender related issue might, in their minds, fail to live up to the ideals of the group based on that complication alone. It may be an elite thing as much as a gender thing.

ETA: I see that the conversation has kind of passed me by while I was composing. People expressed what I was thinking while I was trying to figure out how to say it.

A decade ago, I would have agreed. Today? Not so much.

Why is that? I am not challenging you, just curious as to why you feel that way.

I once wrote a paper that connected Yoruba deities to something I called the "archetypical" NPHC member, which was defined as something in between a stereotype and an ideal. So I'll just use that term for now.

I think that some NPHC archetypes are probably more entrenched than others. Yes, I do believe there is an archetype for each NPHC org, but I think for some people, the values themselves possibly transcend the gender identity. Possibly. Depends on the person.

I am not transgendered. I can only go by the spectrum of transgender people who I do know and work with. I think it's entirely possible that someone could be fighting their gender identity hard enough where they'd pursue an org of their birth/biological gender in their late teens and early twenties. I liken it to gay men who get married to a woman not fully grasping their sexual identity before they commit to marriage.

The case in the news.... well, let me just say she doesn't even look like a boy to me, so I could understand the chapter's reluctance to accept that s/he was more than just a masculine Lesbian. What I don't understand is this particular person's insistence on being a "man" but pledging a sorority with "Finer Womanhood" as a guiding principle -- especially when there are not one, but two coed service-based GLOs on that campus. But that's for another thread.

Over the past few years, I've been more exposed to the T in LGBT, and I can say without hesitation that if a female-to-male transgender aspirant excelled in all other qualifications, I would vote favorably upon him, regardless of prior sorority affiliation. The likelihood of them actually being in a sorority previously would probably be slim. Do I think my fraternity at large shares my beliefs? No. But I do believe there are a few chapters of every organization who would do the same.

Youth that feel this way nowadays have people to relate to on TV (Isis on ANTM, Katelynn from RW-Brooklyn, etc). Plus, the internet gives them the opportunity to educate themselves and find others with similar thoughts/feelings.

I guess I am just confused why a transgendered person would want to belong to an org that represented their former gender. I can see, I guess, wanting to join a fraternity if you had just changed from a woman to a man, but joining a sorority? It seems a little like the "man" who gave birth and is pregnant again...if something about you wants so badly to be in a sorority, or be a mother, then when do you start to question if you really do feel like a man in the first place?

This is not meant to be rude or discriminatory, it is just something that has always bugged me. If you still want to hold on to some major aspects of your former gender, then maybe a little more thought should be taken as to if you identify as a transgendered person or a "masculine woman".

^^^ I think most of us would agree with at least portions of your opinion, even though it's not quite what we're talking about here.

Senusret I, I didn't think you were transgendered, for the record. I don't know if you said that as a point of emphasis or if you thought I equated being G with being T.

My own personal jury is still out on transgenderedness generally. I haven't known enough transgendered people personally to really understand it at the level where I'll accept it as a matter of identity where the problem is with the sex organs/characteristics nature assigned rather than a psychological issue.

But fortunately for the transgendered, no one is waiting for my opinion, and since I generally want people to be treated well and with kindness in real life, I don't think my thoughts are likely to cause any transgendered person to have a negative experience.

^^^ I didn't think you thought that, I was just underscoring my own limited understanding of transgenderness, too. :)

Oh sorry, I didn't make sense, I was referring to the Zeta Phi Beta transgendered story that was alluded to somewhere in this thread, not the thread as a whole.

Ok this is from a newer National MCGLO, member of NMCG (which does not govrern such things, yet)

I know we don't have any specific provisions for this in our bylaws but we do frown on accepting women who have deactivated from other orgs.

That being said I know that some ppl who eventually end up having gender reassignment struggle with their identity and how to identify themselves. So if say an 18 yr old freshman was struggling with gender issues and pledged a fraternity in an attempt to fit in, then as a 24 yr old graduate transgendered woman decided that she loved greek life overall but needed to find a sisterhood, since she is now a woman and can no longer participate in greek life via her frat wanted to join, idk what would happen. I don't know if ppl change their gender and never look back or if they tend to be more open about their past life, because why would you share something like that knowing it could keep you out of an org? There are some things that you should not tell if you can keep yourself from being discriminated against.

My personal thoughts, don't tell me you want to be my soror, but ask me to call you brother!:eek:

Ditto. This includes my acquaintances who I shared a horrendously long Greyhound bus ride with years ago and have stayed in with touch eversince. :)

Both of these individuals are obviously born male, despite the hormones they are taking, and display exaggerated feminine traits (such exaggeration is often characteristic of transgenderism). One of these he-to-she individuals is getting married and has expressed interest in going back to college.

I kept thinking about what would happen if she wanted to join an NPHC sorority. This article made me think about it even more. I wonder if her transgenderism was less obvious (it may be less obvious with more hormones and gender assimilation), would I feel differently given that she had all of the other qualifications including excelling in academics and service. I don't know. :( I think she'd have a difficult time PERIOD.

That disclaimer tickled me. :)

Senusret, everyone knows you're way too masculine and too much of a "he" to be transgendered. Not even for a second.

I don't imagine that becoming an issue. I'm a female brother in a fraternity right now.

In that case, you might wanna re-think your siggy.

Why?

Well one main difference in Greek orgs versus other non-profits is our ability(501 c 10 status) to be able to discriminate based on gender or sex( obviously not co-ed fraternities) And the T in GLBT is the only reference to sex and rather than sexual orientation; so that could be used to prohibit membership.

And, Minervas Torch, my sig refers to culture, and ones gender is NOT his or her culture.

University-based Greek organizations are 501(c)7s. And, that's not why you can discriminate based on gender. It's your Title IX exemption that allows that.

Exactly. If we're going to stick with semantics it doesn't affect you as an APO brother. But from the perspective of a sorority IMO the distinction is valid.

Part of my culture/my cultural reference very much has to do with my gender identity as a female.

Assuming they meet all the qualifications of membership, I can say with certainty I would vote to accept a transgendered person that has made the transition from male to female. For someone that is questioning (either female to male or male to female that has yet to commit to making the change), I would not vote to accept because I wouldn't feel they are ready. I think it is similar (not the same) to not voting on an aspirant that is unsure of her ability to meet the requirements of the intake process or membership. If they are unsure about their status and abilities to uphold the ideals, then how can I be sure about them?

I stand corrected. But does anyone else think that this could be used to discriminate against transgendered individuals?

What I'm saying is that, if the person understood that he would be a sister/soror in a given organization and he accepted that, I have no problem. The issue for legal females who identify as male is that their legal gender precludes them from joining social Greek fraternities. Of course, there are community-based LGBT Greek organizations, but that may not be what a person is looking for.

However, you could only accept that person if she had been deemed "female" in a legal sense, through a court order to change the gender listed on the birth certificate and other documents. Otherwise, the organization would lose its exemption and be forced to become co-ed/non-exclusive.

Only if the gender is legally changed.