Why are questioning PNMs consistently demonized here?
 

I really don't understand why every time a hurting/confused/bewildered PNM comes on this board to try to find help and support, they end up being demonized. Yes, these questions get asked time and time again. Yes, there are lots of threads out there that address these questions.

But shouldn't we as women who belong to organizations that are committed to the highest goals and ideals of womanhood be able to take a few minutes and connect with another human being without making her feel like she is worthless? Reading older threads may supply some information, but it doesn't allow the woman to connect with other women who have more knowledge than she does. Even if every time this comes up a few of us would simply try to be kind and gracious, it would go a long way in living up to the ideals we say we profess for life. If these kinds of questions are an annoyance to some, then just ignore them. But certainly there are enough women on this board that we can take a few minutes to try to encourage someone who is searching for answers - even if the answer is to say with kindness and compassion that we don't know the answer. Maybe we've heard the same kind of story a million times before, but for this woman it is her story and therefore it is important to her.

Every PNM who comes here has a story that is probably more complicated than they could ever adequately explain when they leave a question. Isn't it possible that we graciously give them the benefit of the doubt rather than automatically assume they are just another annoyance to be crushed?

Although GC may not be any kind of "official" panhellenic gathering place, it is an active advertisement for what Greek women are like. I would hope that PNMs who come here would find the best in Greek women and would be more excited to become a part of us instead of feeling that we are women to be avoided at all costs.

I just don't understand the lack of compassion when I am sure this is a virtue championed by most - if not all - of the groups we represent.

OH MY GOSH! You are so right. We're bad people :(

Unfortunately Sallie, there isn't enough compassion to go around here. I avoid those threads like the plague because they all go the same way. It's sad to see several people rip on someone who's already down and doesn't understand why, but that is the unfortunate nature of this (appropriately titled) beast. People seem to lose it over nothing.

To answer your generalized question, they aren't. :rolleyes:


http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...d.php?t=102998

Its hard to have compassion or honest answers with the person posts the same thing three times in three different threads or repeatedly asks questions that we can or will not answer, such as membership selection.

Several posters (me included) did try to answer the questions in a considerate manner to the extent we were able. I do have compassion for PNMs and often send them encouraging PMs. BUT...it comes to a point that enough is enough. Sometimes, there are no answers that the PNM wants to hear.

You're right, Sallie. I often cringe at the harsh responses given to PNMs whose Recruitment didn't end well. But like others have said, sometimes they don't want to really hear and understand what we have to say. There's always some excuse on their part that they will hold onto regardless of its logic.

I'm all for supporting PNMs who are lost in the process. I just won't coddle someone who doesn't listen. Babying people isn't always the best approach. If they want to learn and grow, they've got to accept some harsh realities.

We are anonymous folks on a message board.

If they want information about a particular subject, almost every scenario on earth has been brought up here before and answered in full. When they are too lazy to check, then yeah, it gets old and tiring and no one wants to deal with it. If their question is answered and they persist on asking again and again (hoping the answer will change) or arguing the validity of the answer, then yeah, bitch needs a slap.

If they are upset about their rush results NO ONE here is going to be able to tell them a) what they want to know, because it usually falls under membership info and as strangers we aren't privy to what happens in a particular chapter, or b) what they want to hear, which is that something went wrong and OF COURSE they're wanted by the group they loved and OF COURSE they should try again and OF COURSE it'll work out and if it doesn't then OF COURSE it's the sororities fault because they are wonderful and amazing and it was obviously just dumb luck they didn't get in.

That kind of support you get from your mom, your best friend, your sister, your boyfriend, not from strangers. We can't help. We can't change things, we can't make them feel better, we can't give insight beyond what's been given and told here hundreds and hundreds of times over.

And I agree completely. But I still don't see why a PNM who is having a hard time accepting the answers they are getting needs to be attacked. If they want to live in denial, that is fine. Someone can choose not to listen to what we are telling them. But why does it have to end up in personal attacks and rude comments? Why don't we, as women who supposedly represent the finest in womanhood, take the high road?

And I agree. But being honest doesn't mean being downright rude which is what I have seen numerous times here.

No, we aren't. We're Greek women who represent 26 fine organizations committed to providing women with outstanding opportunities to grow as individuals.


I can honestly say that I'm glad I don't know which NPC group you represent here. I find your attitude very sad.

In most of the threads I've read, the PNMs aren't "demonized" until they adopt a poor attitude. Most GCers are very sympathetic to those who do not have a successful recruitment UNLESS the PNMs/Moms decide to criticize the entire sorority system, or become snarky when they don't receive the answers they are looking for. Sometimes there simply is no answer that we in cyberland can give them - but they refuse to accept that. No matter how many times you post the same question, or how strident you become in demanding an answer, there are some topics we will not discuss, and some situations we simply do not have enough information on to give any insight.

SWTBelle and Jen summarized it pretty well.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't mind a PNM coming here upset about their recruitment or whatever, because I was in their position a while ago. But the difference is that many (if not most) of these PNMs have ignored our advice, or thought our advice was irrelevant to their situation. They truly think that their situation is unique, and when we try to explain (nicely I may add) that it isn't, that is when they decide to either degrade the sorority women on their campus, on GC or on both.

And yes, we are anonymous strangers on the internet regardless of our GLO affiliation.

I stay out of the advice-giving since I'm not in an NPC organization. But, a lot of these PNMs are spoiled brats. If you come in and ask a question like the grown woman you are, NPC GCers always respond cordially and with as much information as they can give.

Although I think some PNMs comments are ridiculous, I think in general people are too rude. I don't understand how some people can bemoan the fact that some sororities will pick on PNMs for not being rich/hot/outgoing enough, and call them elitist, but then they adopt the same elitist, pretentious and bitchy attitude towards people whose problem is that they don't know enough about GLOs or haven't been on Greek Chat for over 5 years. I normally don't care and it's never affected me personally, but I'll point out hypocrisy when I see it. To me I don't see the difference between a hot, blonde, Phi Beta Popular (to steal a recent cute name from somebodies thread haha!) saying that she doesn't care if she cuts ugly/poor girls and a GC member who says they don't care if people think they are rude. I think it's the exact same thing, and at least have the courage to step up to the plate and own up to it.

So I don't know if it's because I'm almost in a Mexican-food induced coma, but your last few sentences do not make sense. WTH are you talking about? Who isn't "stepping up to the plate" and what aren't they "owning?" And how the heck are those two 'scenarios' the same?

I think what Trideltsallie is saying (and I tend to agree) is that she would like to see less reactionary responses from the women online. When a young, immature, hurting pnm starts spouting off, take the high road.
Don't belittle yourself or your organization by getting into a pissing match with someone who you know doesn't know better and won't listen. No one wins. And you only hurt your organization. We aren't anonymous...

just my 2cents

I think at GC, everybody is Panhellenic and doesn't like the fact that some girls in top tier chapters can be, at times, catty and rude to PNMs, other chapters, etc. Many women on GC are, by their own admission, from chapters that struggled with recruitment and numbers and are very vocal about women being bitchy, starting rumors, etc because their chapters were very hurt by these rude actions. Essentially, they bemoan the fact (and rightly so) that these girls are campus "mean girls" and that it harms the Panhellenic community and specific chapters.

However, some people will say that in one post and then be the Greek Chat "mean girls" themselves and be rude to anybody they feel like it. Their excuses ("just deal with it, we're not changing") are identical to the excuses that those rude top tier girls use.

I see a lot of the same exclusivity, pretentiousness, self-congratulation, and quite frankly, tremendous insecurity, between the women who cut PNMs for exceedingly superficial reasons and start rumors and the women who gang up on random people with rude statements here.

I don't see how this connection is far fetched at all. In fact, I don't think it is. If people don't want to see it, or admit it, they won't.

Nobody's organization is hurt by these things. Jeez.

I was just about to post this. I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I see "belittling your organization". That's lame.

It's one thing to think someone's belittling themselves, fine. If I think Senusret I's** being an arrogant asshat, should I think less of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc.? Absolutely not.

**used for entertainment purposes only.

100% agree. I've never posted so much in a thread, but this got to be crazy. I started out trying to help and look where that went. Being nasty in a post as a PNM just doesn't make sense to me. I think we were all very * nice and pleasant* until the PNM became rude and hostile. Guess we all just need to get over it. I know I do. WOW.

Actually, I see a lot of support given to rejected/dejected PNMs here, but they really lose a lot of support once they start talking about how they decided one or two groups who continued to invite them back were below their standards. Or when they repeatedly ask for confidential information and make multiple threads asking the same thing in different words. Or when they continue to not believe the answers we give because their situation is obviously so special and unique. Those are the kinds of things that do not endear someone to many of the GC regulars, myself included.

YES.

And be honest, how many times have you seen a GC member respond with an "Oh I'm totally sorry hun" when a girl ends up not getting a bid?

Alot.

Mean girls say "Tough luck hun, better run along and cry now."

We really don't do that.

Exactly.

People see what they want to see, and ignore the rest.

I reread that thread that the OP is referring to (How do sororities decide?) and I agree that many of GCers responded politely (and I, too, have seen it often. We are sympathetic and try to be helpful.)

The problem arises when people, for whatever reason, act flippant right off the bat. Post # 3 from the original thread comes to mind. The girl (OP) really had a legitimate question - she is naiive, obviously, but to spout off a comment about throwing darts in answer to what was obviously a real question was rude. It smacks of "we're in the club, you're not."

Again, many tried to help but one or two posters kept acting accusatory (like she should KNOW better which she obviously didn't or she wouldn't have cut the last house on pref night) and she eventually got defensive and that didn't bode well for the whole thread.

I agree, she didn't act in an exemplary manner but she didn't throw the first punch. IMO

Yep, it was a flippant response. And sorry that you don't have a sense of humor. I didn't realize that we weren't allowed to joke on these boards!

She's seeking private membership information. She likely already sought it on her campus and didn't get the answer she liked. Rho Chis will tell you that membership selection is private. It's also a question that has been asked a billion times on these boards.

If you would've read my response, I went on to say "Seriously, we can't tell you how members are picked. There are a ton of threads that may answer some of your questions, so spend some time reading."

Sorry it wasn't to your liking.

I'm a member in a NPHC org, so I really think it is nice that so many NPC women try to answer PNMs questions / concerns about how their recruitment ended up. Because I can tell that for NPHC, when people come on here to ask questions / inquire about membership that person is not answered at all and their thread (question) is deleted. NPHC members on this board don't take the time to address the 'woe is me' PNM. And, I think that is how it should be.

An alternative would be to close the thread once relevant information is given before the PNM has a chance to raise the ire of GCers. I have to say that KSUViolet consistently gives excellent advice in a very pleasant manner.

Relevant information is given. If you notice, there are 'stickies' at the top of each of the NPHC's forums explaining the membership information that is available on-line. We usually direct the person to our IHQ website where that info is given. We just don't discuss it any further than that.

I know how the NPHC handles these situations, but NPC is a little bit different. We don't mind having people inquire about membership, so completely banning any of these questions is a little hypocritical for us.

I dont think the argument started because of me pressing for answers. When people said it was private information I said okay and accepted whatever advice was given. The issue started when you and OTW started blaming me for a personal decision I made completely unrelated to the original question.

So although hostility on this board can stem from a poster consistently nagging for answers, just a reminder that it can also come about from personal attacks (which was the case in my thread).

Which is exactly what the NPC women in this thread have said - they will address the PNMs issues, to a point.

My post was to point out that, while the OP may not like the *type* of responses given, at least y'all respond, because it does not happen for every group / org.

I think you are misunderstanding me. To a point, I like the way NPHC handles this situation. I think we could learn from NPHC GCers policy not to entertain these questions with a small change. We should respond then close the thread. Stop the drama before it starts.

If it was completely unrelated, you shouldn't have offered it up to begin with.

We can only answer questions from what people post on here. That goes both ways. Sometimes people don't say enough and get either a better or worse response than they should. Sometimes people say too much and the same thing happens. In your case, you should have just said that you were wondering about member selection, and left it at that without talking about turning down the pref invite. When people say something's private, let it GO. We disclose an awful lot on here (sometimes even too much for my taste, and I never thought I'd say that) and to have a PNM or anyone else keep nagging and saying what we've given isn't enough, doesn't exactly engender warm feelings.

The point is, PNMs come here to ask questions and look for advice. I think we all understand that they don't completely comprehend the details of sorority life. This is why they ask the questions of the people who do know and understand what sorority life is all about.

So when they ask, and they don't fully understand the answer, or they don't hear what they want to, they ask the same question in a different way, or say "No, you don't get it." And in some cases, they provide very little detail concerning their situation, they receive answers based on those basic questions, and then they get mad because we're "judging" them. If you don't want to provide details, that's fine. But don't get mad when people answer you based on limited information.

And it doesn't just happen with PNMs. There was this thread not too long ago...

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=102329

...where a new member was wondering why she wasn't bonding with her sisters. She said that she doesn't go to a lot of events, and she never goes to mixers and formals and usually makes other plans on those nights. People here gave her good advice about making an effort to hang out and go to social functions, and then she flipped out saying she couldn't because of a medical condition.

Basically, if you're looking for advice from knowledgeable people, you have to be willing to accept what they tell you... even if it's not what you want to hear. Because chances are, we're not lying to you. And if that was the case, this site probably wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.

Hey, I love a good joke. The Chuck Norris thread is an alltime favorite.

In this case, the OP wasn't looking for wisecracks and jokes.

Oh, I got it. All I was saying is that we stop the drama before it even has a chance to start because that is where the thread usually ends up - too much drama!:p

Yes, where are these threads where NPC members are gleefully discussing cutting pnms for not being thin/rich enough? And are these mysterious GCers established posters, or trolls looking for trouble? I have somehow missed these threads . . .

There aren't any, because that wasn't in my message. I said that there are constant threads where GC members mention how wrong it is for NPC members to make superficial cuts, start rumors about other chapters, for PNMs to act like chapters are beneath them, etc. Essentially, being "mean girls". I am saying that the only differences between those women that nearly all GC members (including me!) are criticizing, and the select GC posters that post constant rude posts to everybody on this site, are purely situational. The attitude, however, is definitely the same exclusive, rude just to be rude, pretentious and insecure "mean girl" phenomenon. And the excuses, "Just deal with it" are the same that both parties would make. Once again, I don't necessarily think this is an unfair or difficult point to make.

And before somebody tells me to just leave GC, they are missing the point because 95% of the women here make very enjoyable posts, many without "sugarcoating" or "blowing sunshine up somebodies ass" (which I think is also wrong). And before somebody misconstrues my post as ludicrous, I think that most of the population understands what I am trying to say, so at this point I'm just starting to assume that people don't want to understand what I am saying.

Not to toot my own horn, but I'd like to think I've mastered the art of being honest with PNMs without being an outright bitch to them.

However, I feel like if a PNM is going to dish out rudeness, I can do that too.