Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion
 

Warning: Graphic and Disturbing

http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/570428.html

Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

By CHRISTINE ARMARIO

Associated Press Writer
Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy.

Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure.

Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl.

What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Police recovered the decomposing remains in a cardboard box a week later after getting anonymous tips.

"I don't care what your politics are, what your morals are, this should not be happening in our community," said Tom Pennekamp, a Miami attorney representing Williams in her lawsuit against Renelique (ren-uh-LEEK') and the clinic owners.

The state Board of Medicine is to hear Renelique's case in Tampa on Friday and determine whether to strip his license. The state attorney's homicide division is investigating, though no charges have been filed. Terry Chavez, a spokeswoman with the Miami-Dade County State Attorney's Office, said this week that prosecutors were nearing a decision.

Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, called the allegations at best "misguided and incomplete" in an e-mail to The Associated Press. He didn't provide details.

The case has riled the anti-abortion community, which contends the clinic's actions constitute murder.

"The baby was just treated as a piece of garbage," said Tom Brejcha, president of The Thomas More Society, a law firm that is also representing Williams. "People all over the country are just aghast."

Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

I'm not even going to start to say what I'm really feeling. But a society that would allow a living child to be placed in a biohazard bag and thrown away is going to reap what it's sown.

Obviously our society doesn't allow it, just this one abortion clinic.

Society wasn't holding the biohazard bag. Let's blame the people who did not do their jobs properly and according to procedure. That particular clinic and those present will be getting their day in court.

I'm not blaming the mother, who knows what was going on? But I wonder if she felt the child was born live then why did she not protest at the time for proper assistance since obviously those around her were not concerned?

I share your horror, as would, I think, most people. But just from reading the full story linked (and a fuller version can be found here at the Miami Herald), I would not agree with the idea that this is "a society that would allow a living child to be placed in a biohazard bag and thrown away." Even without reading the full story, I'm fairly sure that most people who support abortion rights would find this horrifying.

I have to admit, however, that the lawyer in me does indeed wonder whether we're getting the complete story.

I'm not sure what you mean by "allow." This wouldn't be a story that is causing outrage and a case under investigation if society at large condones this. It is clearly condemned.

I'm pro-choice and I consider this murder. I am disgusted and I wager that the average pro-lifer and pro-choicer finds this disgusting and wants justice to be served.

I would agree with this. There's a big difference between ending a pregnancy and giving birth then killing the baby.

I'm very pro-choice but 23 weeks? I've known babies to be born premature at those weeks and have survived. I've heard of partial birth abortion but I alway assumed that meant 4 or 5 months. (although a family friend gave birth at 5 months and that little girl is about 10 years old now)

But that's not what disgusts me about this story. Where was the doctor? Why was someone with no medical experience dealing with this?

What is the legal allowed amount of time can a woman go before she is denied termination?

I thought it was the first trimester.

Is there a US standard or different between jurisdictions?

I believe that the Supreme Ruled that the state can only intervene in the third trimester.

I am really asking for a ruling in 'regular' abortions, not in extreme cases.

cool beans....


Looks like somebody is in serious trouble

Sorry to hijack, but I was just reading through this (thank you for the link, I have never actually read any statutes on abortion) and near the bottom of the page, this comes up:

9. 320.08058 f.s.
Score: 81.69%
Abstract: Florida panther license plates must bear the design of a Florida panther and the colors that department approves. The word "Florida" must appear at the top of the plate, and the words "Florida Memorial University" must appear at the bottom of the plate. The word "Florida" shall appear at the top of the plate, and the words "Protect Florida Whales" shall appear at the bottom of the plate.

I wonder what words triggered an 81.69& match? :confused:

The general Roe rule was a trimester rule:

• First trimester -- a state cannot restrict a woman's right to an abortion
• Second trimester -- a state can regulate abortions procedure during the second trimester provided it does so in ways reasonably related to the mother's health
• Third trimester (or when the fetus is viable) -- a state can choose to restrict or proscribe abortion as it sees fit except that a state cannot prohibit abortion where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, to preserve the life or health of the mother.

Later cases have modified this some, but it's still probably the basic rule of thumb.

Thanks both of you.

This also bothered me and I was calculating how many months this was to see if I was imagining things.

I don't know why partial births are done because I don't know much about them. From what I do know, I don't agree with partial birth abortions unless done to save the woman's life (if that happens).

I AM SOCIETY, AND I ALLOW BODY-BAG BABIES!

Yeah, that! Some dumb f*ck needs their ass handed to them on a platter

can

not

laugh

at

this

The trimester framework was thrown out in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. In that case, the Court retained the viability aspect of the test but made it something of a moving target. They said that prior to the point of viability, the woman has the right to make decisions regarding her own body [I paraphrase], after the point of viability, however, the state's interest in protecting life kicks in and the state can do whatever it deems necessary, even proscribing abortions altogether. The Court, of course, left us with an exception which probably eats the rule -- when the health of the mother is in question, the state's interest in protecting life yields to that. What this "health" interest is, no one really knows.

Okay, okay, I read that and let my emotions lead my fingers. I'm thrilled to see so many pro-choice people also consider this murder. Frankly, the woman was more than halfway through her pregnancy (40 weeks). Here's an example from Parents.com. The caption says, "The end of this week is an important milestone: Your one-pounder would have a good chance of survival if born now--about 85 percent if given the right care. His body is well proportioned, although lacking in body fat, and the blood vessels in his lungs are developing to prepare for breathing. About 50 percent of "early preemies" experience complications ranging from eye problems to intracranial hemorrhage (spontaneous bleeding in the brain); the rate drops steadily from the 24th week onward." This child could definitely have lived, probably without health problems.

To the lawyers: I've been told that, in certain states, a woman can legally have an abortion up until the day before her due date, especially if the child is going to be a donor for a partial birth abortion. Is that true? While I consider myself pro-life, I really don't accept 100% of their literature without doubt.

This makes me sick...if the baby was delivered, why not ...ugh.... I just can't put it into words. Partial-birth abortion is horrible, but this is so much worse!

I'm 31 weeks pregnant, and at 23 weeks (beginning of December), I had already been carrying her for five months, I could feel her move, she had a name and everything....I just don't understand.

I really hope you're not surprised.

If so, that is disturbing and may indicate that you have an extremist view of what it means to be pro-choice. You may also have a pessimistic view of humanity and this society.

I wish the weeks could be presented as months so I could avoid the math. :p

I have 2 friends who are about 31 weeks pregnant. Seeing their bodies change and the fact that their babies have names reinforces how I don't believe in abortion this far along except for extenuating circumstances.

Aside from extreme cases, if a woman knows she wants to have an abortion, she should have it ASAP. If she finds out she's pregnant a month or so in, she can still make up her mind and do hat she needs to do. I don't understand how people wait so many months in.

31 weeks - 1st week of the 8th month
23 weeks - 2nd week into 6th month

But...you don't actually conceive until about what's considered week 2.

Oh then they are more along the lines of 6 months.

I'm having trouble understanding the uproar. What's the difference, in this specific case, between ending the baby's life while in the womb and ending the baby's life outside of the womb if the goal is accomplished?

I have a problem with this thread and that goes beyond the original horrific story.

This country has been divided along lines of Pro Life and Pro Choice since the Roe v. Wade decision so many years ago.

honeychile stated her opinion and she has been picked on ever since. We all have a right to believe what we believe and should be able to state that belief without being picked on.

This story does point out the slippery slope that is picking a single point at which life outside the womb is possible. Most of those I know who call themselves pro-choice draw the line at abortion after the child is viable outside the womb. That line keeps getting earlier and earlier.

Either you're reading a different thread or you're hypersensitive.

Hence the discussion in this thread.

So stop "picking on us" for responding to honeychile.

That's a really good point. I think the uproar comes from the fact that the doctor didn't show up and someone with no medical expertise dealt with the situation and then just threw the baby out.

My belief is that abortions shouldn't be allowed after the point of when a baby can be delivered and have a possibility of living.

I posted earlier about a family friend who delivered prematurely. She delivered at 27 weeks, and that little girl is now 11 years old.

ETA: Also, the article didn't state why the woman was having an abortion. If she was having it because she didn't want the baby anymore, I have HUGE issues with that. If it was a matter of keeping the woman alive because of a difficult pregnancy, then I have a huge issue with the way it was carried out. Although, if it were the latter, I'd think it'd happen in a hospital and not an abortion clinic. (I know of a woman who had to abort mid-pregnancy because it was a chance of her dying and possibly the baby dying. She had other kids also. The abortion was very hard on everyone in their family and I believe they had a private funeral and the baby's body is buried in the cemetary.)

27 months? Wow, that is a long pregnancy.

sorry, I couldn't resist!

Thank you for your statement, it proved my point...

And this statement proves mine. :)

I posted somewhere else on GC that I believe the answer is establishing a point in gestation beyond which abortion is no longer legal across the board. Beyond that point, if there is a threat to the mother's life, determine another option (such as an emergency c-section). At this point with modern technology, I'd personally say legalize abortion up to 22 weeks. Beyond that, the baby is likely viable outside the womb.

I understand that there can be serious complications for the baby if born premature, but at least give the baby a chance at life. The thing that horrifies me about late term abortions is that we wouldn't go around jamming scissors into newborns' heads...why do it to a baby in utero that CLEARLY feels the pain?

I think we are getting a very skewed story. A 23 week fetus will NOT live without immediate medical treatment, and nearly all 23 week babies born prematurely without the aid of an attempted abortion will die regardless of medical treatment. Whether or not this is murder is VERY debatable. Why this woman was given a cervical dilator before the physician arrived is a necessary question to answer. As for the employee who thought it wise to dispose of the baby as described, a lack of education may be the answer.

I usually will hesitate to disagree with MC on legal issues, but this was my understanding as well, that the plurality in Casey threw out the trimester framework. Other than what you've posted, though, I don't think a whole lot more came out of the case (as noted by your last sentence).


A couple of things on this:

1) The country was already divided before Roe v. Wade. All you have to do is look at the Griswold decision, or the immense amount of press and publicity prior to Roe to see that this has divided the nation for a number of years. I would agree that it's become even more of a public issue since Roe (especially with the ridiculous tradition of screening Supreme Court justices by their views on abortion).

2) Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see where honeychile has been picked on in this thread. Were posts deleted? In any event, I think any time you express your opinion on something as controversial as abortion, you have to expect that you'll be "picked on" to some extent, because people are so polarized on the issue.

FYI, I don't think I've been picked on in this thread.

LOL! I didn't think you did. :) That's why we're like :confused: