GreekChat.com Forums

GreekChat.com Forums (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/index.php)
-   Greek Life (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   Can class be learned? (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=102759)

traditionsf 01-28-2009 05:36 AM

Can class be learned?
 
Hello everyone, I've recently finished rush and this is my first post.

I am a first-generation immigrant to the United States and was raised in a different kind of household than a majority of greeks. After high school, I realized that somehow I had become rather shy and oblivious to fashion and that I did not like it.

This is what drew me to fraternity life. My motivation for joining a fraternity was to further myself as a person and to put myself in a much more social environment. I particularly look up to the values represented by a Southern Gentleman (respect, chivalry, and maturity etc.) and hoped that by joining a fraternity I could better understand and live up to those ideals.

I believe that I have it in me and that I only need proper instruction. But I am curious as to the opinions of people on this forum. Essentially I am asking, "can class be learned? or is it something you either have or don't"

BigRedBeta 01-28-2009 06:44 AM

There's nothing exclusive about having those values. It may take time to fully internalize them so that you don't think about them (which is what gives the impression of performing them effortlessly) but they're definitely ideas anyone can subscribe to if willing.

Gusteau 01-28-2009 09:27 AM

Additionally, most fraternity's member education programs involve some type of etiquette. I doubt anyone is initiated before learning how to tie a tie and how long to hold a proper handshake. On the other hand, your fraternity liked you for who you are so don't try to change that. This stuff just makes you a more polished version of you. Someone just posted a quote on another thread that was something like "These letters don't make me better than you, they make me better than I was before."

MysticCat 01-28-2009 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traditionsf (Post 1771681)
I believe that I have it in me and that I only need proper instruction. But I am curious as to the opinions of people on this forum. Essentially I am asking, "can class be learned? or is it something you either have or don't"

Etiquette and good manners, how to dress well and chivalry can all be learned.

Those things, however, are not the same as "class" in my mind. I've known people with impeccable manners and style, people who knew all the rules to follow in good society, who were proof that all the money in the world couldn't buy class. On the other hand, I've known people who wouldn't know a salad fork from a tuning fork and whose sense of style was completely lacking but who were the epitome of class. Shoot, take in a performance of Pygmalian or My Fair Lady sometime.

Don't get me wrong. Manners are very important, but they are outward. Class is inward -- it's an attitude of respecting yourself and respecting others, of acting with dignity and or treating others with dignity. Learning manners is about changing habits. Becoming a person with class is about changing attitudes and ways of thinking and of viewing others.

And FWIW, just based on your post, I'd wager there's a good chance you already have class.

libramunoz 01-28-2009 11:49 AM

As far as "learning" etiquette, it is easy to grab many books (Ms. Manners by Judith Martin or Emily Post) and learn the "proper" etiquette, that's not something that's hard to learn.
However, class is something that evolves over times. A person can be "classy" and be as poor as a church mouse. Whereas, a person can have been "groomed" to be classy but be as ignorant as a clown.
You are who you are to begin with and you know what you like and don't like. The difference is in being able to know how to have a balance between the two.

Little32 01-28-2009 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1771709)

Don't get me wrong. Manners are very important, but they are outward. Class is inward -- it's an attitude of respecting yourself and respecting others, of acting with dignity and or treating others with dignity.

I like you.

jojapeach 01-28-2009 01:22 PM

I agree with all of the previous posts, especially MysticCat's. The OP sounds like he has class but just wants to be refined with the utmost of etiquette, manners, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of filthy rich heirs and heiresses that have learned ettiquette but could not apply classy values to save their life.

traditionsf, I think if you observe the class that others show in everyday life, i.e. holding a door for a woman or not trying to fly off the handle whenever you are unhappy with a situation, then you can certainly absorb some of those values if you choose to.

sigmadiva 01-28-2009 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojapeach (Post 1771771)
I'm sure there are plenty of filthy rich heirs and heiresses that have learned ettiquette but could not apply classy values to save their life.


Paris Hilton!:p

ree-Xi 01-28-2009 02:08 PM

You already have class, in my opinion. Polishing your appearance, behavior, and knowledge base is not exlusive to those who were "born" into certain lifestyle. In your efforts to polish yourself, don't lose too much of who you are. You sound like a good egg.

DrPhil 01-28-2009 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva (Post 1771793)
Paris Hilton!:p

And the loud, drunk wealthy families I used to see during family weekends at a few universities.

jojapeach 01-28-2009 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva (Post 1771793)
Paris Hilton!:p

Exactly. LOL I wanted to use a male example, like Paris' ex...whoever he is. I just refused to take the time to research these individuals, but they define stratosphere upper class without an ounce of "class".

srmom 01-28-2009 05:02 PM

Mystic Cat, your post should be required reading.

violetpretty 01-28-2009 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1771709)
Don't get me wrong. Manners are very important, but they are outward. Class is inward -- it's an attitude of respecting yourself and respecting others, of acting with dignity and or treating others with dignity. Learning manners is about changing habits. Becoming a person with class is about changing attitudes and ways of thinking and of viewing others.

Applause.

SWTXBelle 01-28-2009 06:55 PM

Sign me up for the MC Fan Club.

Thetagirl218 01-28-2009 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1771709)
Don't get me wrong. Manners are very important, but they are outward. Class is inward -- it's an attitude of respecting yourself and respecting others, of acting with dignity and or treating others with dignity. Learning manners is about changing habits. Becoming a person with class is about changing attitudes and ways of thinking and of viewing others.

I love this quote!!!

AKA_Monet 01-29-2009 01:08 AM

To the OP: Much of American values of etiquette and protocol comes from the English and French royal courts, just for some historical perspective.

Might I suggest reviewing Rudyard Kipling's "If", another great example of "class", IMHO.

IMHO, the United States does not have a legal "class" structure. Any "class" structure that you observe publicly is not legally based on current government-approved structure.

But, as far as your definition of "class", MysticCat's is probably the most accurate description. I would call that "Character".

And I was always taught that you have a million dollar person and a ten cent person. A million dollar person can put on a ten cent suit and still be a million dollar person. But a 10 cent person puts on a million dollar suit, you still have a 10 cent person...

MysticCat 01-29-2009 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet (Post 1772108)
Might I suggest reviewing Rudyard Kipling's "If", another great example of "class", IMHO.

I'm a big Rudyard Kipling fan, and that's one of my all time favorites. I like it so much that, just in case there's someone who doesn't know it, I'm going to post it here:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream -- and not make dreams your master;
If you can think -- and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
'Or walk with kings -- nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run --
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And -- which is more -- you'll be a Man, my son!

(BTW, the line "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two impostors just the same" is written above the players' entrance to center court at Wimbledon.)

And thanks to the fan clubbers. :D

srmom 01-29-2009 11:44 AM

Quote:

Might I suggest reviewing Rudyard Kipling's "If", another great example of "class", IMHO.
Great that you mentioned that poem. And thanks Mystic Cat for reprinting it.

At the boys camp that my kids have gone to during their entire youth, this poem was read over the loud speaker every night at bed time. Hopefully, a little rubbed off over the years!

The conclusion page of their website:

http://www.lajunta.com/clj/conclusion.htm

jojapeach 01-29-2009 01:14 PM

*putting on my "MC" baseball cap direct from the fan club*

I've never read that before, that that was just wonderful. That poem was so moving and obviously timeless. Thank you, AKA_Money and MC!

IowaMullet 01-29-2009 01:19 PM

People who use the word "classy" tend to be anything but.

WaterChild 01-29-2009 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IowaMullet (Post 1772186)
People who use the word "classy" tend to be anything but.

In my opinion, you're anything but.

MysticCat 01-29-2009 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by srmom (Post 1772168)
At the boys camp that my kids have gone to during their entire youth, this poem was read over the loud speaker every night at bed time. Hopefully, a little rubbed off over the years!

The conclusion page of their website:

http://www.lajunta.com/clj/conclusion.htm

I really like that (and wish we lived closer to that camp.) And glad you liked the poem, jojapeach.

Okay, I'm getting carried away, but what with Burns Night having been this past Sunday, what should pop up on my iPod at lunch but one of my other favorite poems/songs on this topic of class/character: "Is There for Honest Poverty," better known as "A Man's A Man For A' That." (Aye, I'm enough of a Scots-geek that I have Rabbie Burns songs on my iPod.) This was sung at the State Opening of the Scottish Parliament, with Her Grace Elizabeth, Queen of Scots (aka Her Majesty the Queen), The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and His Royal Highness The Duke of Rothesay (aka The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales) all in attendance. (Click here to see a nice video of it -- look for Sean Connery.) The cameras didn't show if the royals joined the Parliament in singing the final verse, but I'd like to think that they did. :cool:

To try and tie this all a wee bit to Greekdom, Burns (like Kipling, for that matter) was a Freemason, and masonic values clearly influenced the philosophy that underlies the poem.

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a cuif for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's aboon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

(If you need a translation from Scots into English, you can find it here. One term I'll point out -- by "coward slave," Burns meant those who allowed themselves to be treated as inferiors rather than equals of the higher classes.)

Okay, no more poems from me today. :D

srmom 01-29-2009 03:16 PM

Thanks MC, that was beautiful!

PhoenixAzul 01-29-2009 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1772208)
I really like that (and wish we lived closer to that camp.) And glad you liked the poem, jojapeach.

Okay, I'm getting carried away, but what with Burns Night having been this past Sunday, what should pop up on my iPod at lunch but one of my other favorite poems/songs on this topic of class/character: "Is There for Honest Poverty," better known as "A Man's A Man For A' That." (Aye, I'm enough of a Scots-geek that I have Rabbie Burns songs on my iPod.) This was sung at the State Opening of the Scottish Parliament, with Her Grace Elizabeth, Queen of Scots (aka Her Majesty the Queen), The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and His Royal Highness The Duke of Rothesay (aka The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales) all in attendance. (Click here to see a nice video of it -- look for Sean Connery.) The cameras didn't show if the royals joined the Parliament in singing the final verse, but I'd like to think that they did. :cool:

To try and tie this all a wee bit to Greekdom, Burns (like Kipling, for that matter) was a Freemason, and masonic values clearly influenced the philosophy that underlies the poem.

Is there for honest Poverty
That hings his head, an' a' that;
The coward slave-we pass him by,
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Our toils obscure an' a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The Man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine;
A Man's a Man for a' that:
For a' that, and a' that,
Their tinsel show, an' a' that;
The honest man, tho' e'er sae poor,
Is king o' men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord,
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that;
Tho' hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a cuif for a' that:
For a' that, an' a' that,
His ribband, star, an' a' that:
The man o' independent mind
He looks an' laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an' a' that;
But an honest man's aboon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa' that!
For a' that, an' a' that,
Their dignities an' a' that;
The pith o' sense, an' pride o' worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.

(If you need a translation from Scots into English, you can find it here. One term I'll point out -- by "coward slave," Burns meant those who allowed themselves to be treated as inferiors rather than equals of the higher classes.)

Okay, no more poems from me today. :D

hehe,
"Fair fie ye honest sonsie face...

Hope you had a great Burns Night. I couldn't get a haggis imported in time/legally, so we just had neeps and tatties and cockaleekie soup. mmm.

MysticCat 01-29-2009 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixAzul (Post 1772260)
hehe,
"Fair fie ye honest sonsie face...

Hope you had a great Burns Night. I couldn't get a haggis imported in time/legally, so we just had neeps and tatties and cockaleekie soup. mmm.

You did better than I did, I'm afraid. We had symphony tickets for Sunday and couldn't do a Burns Supper in addition, nor had I gotten a haggis. I had to content myself with simple porridge -- I haven't even had time lately to make oatcakes, shortbread or any of my other standard Scots fare.

carnation 07-01-2016 07:51 AM

I just came across this thread and I love it! I want all my students to read it!

(Mystic Cat, one of my son-in-law is from Scotland. He keeps threatening to bring us a haggis and we fear that he'll do just that after his visit home next month.) :(

honeychile 07-01-2016 08:25 AM

I'm not sure how I missed this thread, but it seems to be one that most certainly NOT be missed! Thank you, carnation, for the bump.

My Jamestown cousin is the epitome of class and character, and I am proudly one of the earlier members of his GC fanclub!

DZ_Turtle86 07-01-2016 10:10 AM

There are so many threads that I wish had a "Where are they now?" conclusion.

ASTalumna06 07-01-2016 03:35 PM

Of course I'm that person who read this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by traditionsf (Post 1771681)
I believe that I have it in me and that I only need proper instruction. But I am curious as to the opinions of people on this forum. Essentially I am asking, "can class be learned? or is it something you either have or don't"

... and immediately thought of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENgJZlmgI6U

:p

elicampbell 07-01-2016 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06 (Post 2413198)
Of course I'm that person who read this...



... and immediately thought of this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENgJZlmgI6U

:p

I thought of this : https://youtu.be/kEDvlSAMhQU

tcsparky 07-01-2016 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva (Post 1771793)
Paris Hilton!:p

Where I grew up, we called that "trash with cash!"

honeychile 07-01-2016 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DZ_Turtle86 (Post 2413192)
There are so many threads that I wish had a "Where are they now?" conclusion.

Absolutely!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.