??? about a few comments seen around...
 

I posted this on another forum related to a specific comment, but I thought maybe I should address it here as well - it's a theme I've noticed around these boards on several occasions and I had to comment upon it - are PNMs actually judged on what they look like? You'll probably say no, but I've noticed a few times when someone is defending their sorority chapter around the boards, they generally say "and we're not ugly or fat". Frankly this makes me not want to rush at all, as if it's a beauty contest.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic or start trouble, I'm just honestly curious about these comments.

My chapter doesn't judge girls on their looks, as long as they're not someone who doesn't shower or something like that. I'm sure that other chapters at my school do very much judge girls based on looks... it's sad, but true that people have to be so superficial. It's hard for my chapter to get members (we now have 30) because when girls go through recruitment they see thin beautiful girls in some chapters and then in others they see a mixture of everything. They generally want to join the one full of beautiful girls. The good thing about my chapter is that we are very diverse and we're not superficial at all.

Some sororites and fraternities choose people that look good and are skinny to attract more people of the opposite sex to hang with them. The group that have the over all best looking tend to be the most popular. Its sad but true even my chapter is turning that way being more selective. I think if the are nice and a good asset why not? But popularity is what most people want so oh well..

"Cute" can mean a number of things. The sisters who compliment a rushee on being "cute" may be referring to her personality, not necessarily her looks. As a collegiate, I participated in many rush parties and, as an alumna, I've observed many more. I can say from experience that beauty is not the main thing that sorority women look at when selecting their new members. We judge rushees on many of the same things that rushees judge us on: grades, participation in campus activities, personality, etc. :)

Unless things have changed... The membership committee reviews the existing profile of the chapter. From assessments they see what their strength and weaknesses are. Having only face men/women will harm a chapter as much as all sports oriented people or such. If you have the whole package, yes, your chances are better than someone who has 1 or 2 qualities of the SEVERAL they are looking for. Some years, if they see their GPA falling, they MAY concentrate on those PNMs that can build their chapter in that area. Nothing is set in stone and it's always changing. To reiterate what has been stated on this board numerous times, some important points are grades, leadership, community and personality and the ability to meet financial obligations. There WERE phone calls made about PNM's to people who new them in HS (reputation). If it comes in a nice, polished package (I didn't say beautiful) all the better.

I agree
 

I definitely agree with my sister Carrie on this one! I remember during one rush there was a PNM who went through who would never be anybody's definition of "pretty" or "hot" but everyone wanted her because, as we all said, "she's SO DAMN CUTE!". She was outgoing, friendly, asked lots or questions, and so frankly interested in what we all had to say.

No offense to Tibi, I'm sure you're a lovely young woman! I just meant that "cute" is usually used by rushers to describe the package as a whole, not the looks!

I know it doesn't go on in every chapter of every organization, but I guess for some reason it just irks me that it goes on at all - I mean, you're friends with someone because of their personality and not how they look in tight pants, it seems awful to me that we'd judge each other like that. I mean, geez, we get it enough from the opposite sex, why add to it? :)

people identify with people like them.
you can't just blame the sorority members for looking for attractive people. Why do you think PNM's say that they "don't fit in" or "didn't feel comfortable." They are looking for people like them, and most people want to identify with attractive people. Before anyone goes and says that "some sororities only take pretty people" maybe they ought to look at them selves and their friends and the people they are friendly with...whether you are greek or not, this holds very true.

FYI, my friends are composed of people of all shapes and sizes, and levels of conventional "attractiveness"...

Anyway, this is definitely making me rethink whether or not I want to rush. I'm reasonably confident in my level of attractiveness and I doubt it would be an issue, but that's not the point - I want people to want to be friends with me because of my brains and my sense of humor and my way of caring about people, not because I might help attract a certain group of guys or anything like that.

I hate to bust anyones bubble but every day people judged you based on your apperance. It may be based on your physical look or on the way you present yourself. People have a tendence to place a snap judgement based on the physical manifastion of your person. Everyones "look" is a manor of statement, even those that profess that they do not care about the way they look are making a statement.
But that aside very few people want to be considered ugly or fat. Whether greek or nor. People also tend to judge people by the groups which they are assocated, so if you group is judged as fat or morally loose then it reflects on you as a person.
For the record I have alot of friends that do not look anything like me, but none the less they do present themselves well despite their personal style.

I can see what you mean about thinking that people judge you on your looks, well I will be the first to say that yes I judge on looks. I DONT mean that I judge on whether someone is attractuve, I judge on how they present themselves. If a girl comes through rush looking like a hooker, I am not going to think highly of her. Rush is COMPETITIVE, you know this going in. You also know that people are JUDGING you for membership in their organization. I don't want a girl that just rolled out of bed looking like trash wearing my letters. Same for COB events. What you wear says a lot about you. Look at your campus for example. I mean, yes I go to class in a sweatshirt and sweatpants it is the most comfortable thing at 8 AM and I don't wear makeup or whatever. If I were going to a job interview, though, I wouldn't look like that. I would want to PRESENT myself in the best way possible. That is what I mean when I say I judge on looks. There are girls that come through rush wearing daisy duke short skirts and tight cleavage tops, why? I am not going to be asking these girls out, I am going to be asking them about what type of sisterhood they are looking for and why they would be an asset to my sisterhood. You can be the most beautiful person in the world, have the attitude of a ripe lemon and I will not care how cute you are.
That is what I think most people mean by looks. There are so many cute girls that come through rush and they aren't just beautiful because of their appearance they have a spirit that makes them the most wonderful women, and make me want them in my letters.

My friends and my sorority sisters do come in all shapes, sizes, ethnicities, relgions, ect.. but on some level there is a level of "attractiveness". I am not saying "attractiveness" along super model statutes. I am saying "attractiveness" along the lines of their humour, their charecter, their morals, and yes, on some level on the way they look. i can say, they all shower, they all take pride in their apparence. I don't think its wrong to be judged on any of those elements.
even after you get out of college and go on a job interview, most places would prefer to hire a healthy (when i say "healthy" i don't necessairly mean skinny, bc many skinny people can look bad too), clean, neat person.
My sorority, on my campus level and on a national level composes of a million different types of women. Everything imaginable, but thats what part of being in a sorority is about. And someone just thinking that that is all that sorority's base their recruitment on is being just as stereo-typical as they believe the sorority members are. If a PNM doesn't give them a chance and bases everything on rumours, and not getting to know the chapters and getting past that, then maybe they shouldn't join an organization.

Tibi, I agree with you! I enjoy taking pride in the way I look too!

I think some of y'all have misunderstood me - I'm not talking about judging someone on the way they carry themselves, their personalities and how they shine through, their hygeine, etc - that I totally understand. I'm more specifically referring to, perhaps, judging a clean, well-dressed woman with a good personality on, for instance, her weight, or the size of her nose, or some other PURELY PHYSICAL thing. Like only letting in "hot" girls or model types.

I guess I didn't articulate myself well enough. Sorry. :)

I can understand where you are coming from. I went to Elon College, not to far away from Duke and visited there a few times with some friends. I understand that Duke's rush is pretty competitive, like most southern schools.
Honestly, go through recrutiment, if you feel as if certain chapters may be judging you on your apperance too much, you can always drop them, or not accept a bid, ect.. But, I also know some very nice women from different organizations from Duke who really aren't like that at all. I can think of one or two chapters who do not base everything on height, weight, and how many guys they can attract with their new members. Look for those organizations, they do exist.

To be honest, it probably does help a rushee to be "attractive", just like it helps a job applicant. That may not be an official criteria for either sorority rushing or job application, but its definitely a factor. This does not mean that anyone is ruled out or judged negatively if they aren't "cute". And, it also doesn't mean that a girl gets in just because she is cute. But, it does mean that all things being equal, it helps.

Face it, people with good looks do have an edge socially. People with lots of money do too. So do people who have influence (i.e., their brother is a big rock star or their dad is a U.S. Senator).

But does any of this change the overall mix. I don't think so. Most sororites have a nice blend of different personalities, backgrounds, financial status, religions, and looks. There arent that many budding Miss Americas who are rich and are a daughter to the Governor coming through rush. That leaves pleanty of room for the rest of us.

PLEASE!!! While this may be the case at Tibi's school (and others), let me assure anyone who is less familiar with the Greek system that this is not true of all chapters. (This can only be determined by getting to know members at EACH school.) I never really cared what a sister wore/looked like as long as she wasn't showing body parts that should be covered. I also never remember my chapter caring during rush if a girl had a big butt, long nose, or frizzy hair. (Chances were, someone else in the chapter had those as well!) I don't think people are going to question prospective new members to see if they have a medical reason for being overweight and if they do, only let "those" overweight members in. Why not ask people if they have heart disease and diabetes while we are at it since those people might slow us down? (Note: EXTREME sarcasm here!)

I could care less if the guys thought my chapter was the hottest, I'm happy knowing that we have the "hottest" sisterhood. The guys are going to come and go but sisterhood, mine anyway, is FOREVER.

I hate to say this, but this is from personal experience. I went through Recruitment as a freshman, after being at school for barely a week. I did not dress in the most stylish fashions of the moment, but I dressed well, was well groomed, had several activities, and excellent grades, I am very petite and far from over weight, long blonde hair (had to mention since I know that is the typical stereotype)...yet I know for a fact that I was cut from some places due to the fact that I was not "hot." I definitly have never looked my age, and still do not. I love my sorority and my chapter. I am glad I ended up where I did, because if I went to one of those places that had cut me I would have been with the wrong kind of girls for the wrong reasons. Tow years after I went through recruitment I still met girls in other sorority that were shocked and appalled at where I was a sister, that said I should have been somewhere else...even my PNMs when I was a Rho Chi pegged me to be from another chapter. Just because my sisters are not all models, does not mean they are not the most wonderful people around. I have even had people make the comment that I am too pretty to be in my sorority at my school...how dare anyone say that to me! How superfical!

ok, this whole conversation is becoming rediculous.
some people prefer to be around people who take care of themselves physically (ie. health, fitness, ect.). some people don't think that that matters. All of this is reflected in who you are. it doesn't make you a bad or good person, its just the way things are. thats why there are many, MANY different organizations out there.
the whole point is is basically, should DukeBlue rush , bc she had heard some rumours about sorority women basing their membership on looks. My answer to this is yes, she should go through recruitment to see for herself if those rumours are true. Lets hope they aren't!
So whats y'alls answers?

ees125-I went through the same exact thing on my campus. The girls in my house are not models at all, but they are the nicest girls on campus. Just because I was "hot," people made comments to me like "you don't fit in there." Oh! I guess I can't be hot and want to be around an entire group of nice girls.

Unfortunately, the "hot" sororities also get stereotyped on my campus. They are either known as "stuck-up," "b*tches," or "sluts." Because our campus is so small, I know most of these girls are they do not fit their stereotypes at all!

My bottom line when choosing a house was I could align myself with those negative stereotypes, true or not, and people would assume that of me. Unfortunately, people do not even have to get to know you, just your Greek letters, before they will assume that you are "slutty" or whatever. I figured the best way to go was to join the "nice, unattractive" girls because people can look at me and clearly see that I'm not unattractive. They can't look at me and see that I'm not a "slut."

I hate stereotypes! People are so cognitively lazy!! *sighs*

Great Post maggieaxid
 

Kudos to you maggieaxid! She should definitely give recruitment a chance, then judge for herself. :)

Greek Love,
Jen

I think every organization greek or not gets pigon-holed. There's always a "smart" group, "slut" group, "athletic" group...you get the point. Once you stop being intimidated by the rumors & find out for yourself, you realize that the rumors weren't true.
DukeBlue- go through recruitment. If a sorority cuts you for superficial reasons you don't want to be there anyway. If you're kept purely because you're hot, then be the leader who starts taking girls for personality traits and not for their looks. :D good luck
Heidi

I agree with Heidi about rumors. The movie "Legally Blonde" has a lot of truth to it about sterotypes.

Also, with regard to Duke, they are academically very strong with many girls majoring in technical and difficult fields like engineering, etc. I doubt if many have the time, much less the inclination, to be superficial. What I know about my engineering student-friends is that they work their tushes off just to get by.