Too much knowledge?
 

Is there such a thing as too much knowledge about a group known by a rushee? In most cases would the following show positively that the person had show interest or negatively a creepy level of interest? (Assume the person is not a legacy of the National or chapter)

a) Knowing when the National was formed
b) Knowing where the National was formed
c) Knowing when the chapter at that school was formed
d) Knowing that the chapter had been rechartered at the school (after being inactive)
e) Knowing the names of all of the National founders
f) Knowing the names of all of the Chapter founders (presuming it is not the first chapter)
g) Knowing the fact that the chapter had the best GPA in the greek system last year.
h) Knowing the National organization's special service project (like helping the deaf)
i) Knowing the symbols such as the flower...

Any stories about a rushee who knew "too much" or close to it?

I would only consider F to be creepy if the person was pursuing Alpha Phi Alpha.

If it was APO, it would depend on the type of chapter it was. E and F might be the only creepy ones for ME, but for current actives they might not want to deal with such a "superpledge." Not that they wouldn't pick him/her, they would probably be joked about.

It depends on how they act knowing that info.

All that is pretty public information (with respect to my organization anyway), so I wouldn't necessarily find it creepy. Now if for some reason some of that stuff wasn't public knowledge or had to be researched EXTENSIVELY (maybe d for example), it would come across a little extra.


I agree with Phrozen in that how they act knowing all this information is crucial as well.

Agreed, how they handle it is key. I'm thinking somewhat low key where for example, instead of asking "What community service do you do?", at the Delta Zeta sorority house asking "What community service for the deaf do you do?".

Randy

I agree. A know-it-all isn't a shoe-in for membership. There are a lot of women who know public information about Delta and her chapters but are not, and probably will never be, Sorors. :)

This stuff is all public info either through websites, school records, or talking to people. Commiting charter members to memory is the only thing that I didn't do until much later in the process. :)

I don't know...NPC is very different. I think that we usually stress finding a place where you feel comfortable with the members over choosing an org that you like on paper. I'd be a little creeped out if a PNM could spout off more than obvious symbols of the group. It seems a little stalkerish!

I don't find G, H, or I creepy at all.

Right. And it also depends on how they know the info. If mom or dad is a member of the group in question, for example, then I wouldn't be surprised if they knew more than the average rushee.

I did add the comment when I proposed the question that the person was not a legacy. I've known people who were so deeply legacy, that they had no choice in whether to know this sort of knowledge. In my chapter of Alpha Phi Omega (which has no official concept of legacies at all), the younger sister by blood of one of our brothers (we are co-ed) showed up to so many events before becoming a student that we figured that she almost met all of the hours and meeting requirements for pledging before she enrolled. (I think we gave her as a big the only fraternity brother who had been there longer than her brother)

You did, and I missed that. Oops. Sorry. :o

From my perspective, if this is an NPC, I'd be very creeped out by pretty much all but the GPA and the philanthropy. I guess creeped out isn't the right word...more skeptical. I think that it would come across like, "I am spouting off these facts to impress you so you will give me a bid."

Now, I obviously respect all that information a lot, and I'm not saying there is no reason to learn it for GLOs you aren't a part of, but I do not think rush is the appropriate time at all. For most collegiate girls I know, this information would rub them the wrong way entirely and make you seem desperate, stalkerish or like you are trying to impress us and give you a bid, not because you are genuinely interested.

I think, for example, saying something like "My studies are very important to me, and I noticed you had the highest GPA. What programs do you have in place to achieve this?" or "I really enjoy making hotels for abandoned walruses, and I notice that is your philanthropy. What do you do for it?" is a good idea. BUT I'd also caution you to make sure you are doing more than just asking questions...sometimes women in rush will ask so many questions that at the end of the party you know they are interested, but you know absolutely nothing about their personality. I think the right balance of questions and conversation about goofy things you have in common with your rusher usually works best. But definitely leave most of those facts for after you get your bid, as many women my age would interpret that as trying to trick or force your way into the chapter.

Case in point: one recruitment there was a woman that many of my sisters knew as a very cute, outgoing and highly accomplished PNM. There was a LOT of buzz about her, and we knew her personality was so strong and her accomplishments so amazing (and trust me, they were EXCEPTIONAL, maybe one of THE top PNMs in terms of accomplishments that year) that she would surely be high on our list.

She made it through two parties before she was released. Both parties all she did was talk about all the things she loved about us that she had clearly researched. Our socials last year, the amount we raised in our philanthropy, specific things from our history...although on paper this sounds like we should have been honored that she was so interested, IN PERSON it seemed very weird, strange and like she was trying to "trick" herself in.

The problem was that even though there were some women that vouched for her, the only thing about her personality that came off to the others was that she was obsessed with our GLO. She was released after quite a bit of confusion as to what to do with her...she ended up with not many options for sororities, which given her personality, accomplishments, grades and, let's be honest, looks, was VERY surprising. It got around that she did this for all the groups, and that they all thought it was a little too obsessive/weird.

So to sum up, after two posts haha, is that I think a few questions mixed with some conversation that will bring out your personality will be far more successful for you.

I get why in NPC realm it would come off as "weird". What I guess I don't get about this story is that since there was significant "BUZZ" about her in your chapter and it seemed like she was a desired PNM, why it would then be off putting that she was as interested in your organization?
(I'm not counting that she did this for all orgs, since from your story it doesn't seem you knew that before you released her).

Stepping back out of NPC realm, if there was an aspirant that we were "highly interested in" and during the process of speaking to her she showed this level of interest in an appropriate manner, I don't think I'd remove her from consideration.

Fair enough question. We had received a rec for the woman and a couple sisters knew her from high school, so she was on our watch list for sure. But when heavier cuts had to be made, the "obsessiveness" and the fact that she hadn't given us a clue to her personality (simply talked about how she loved us) was called into question. The majority of the women in our chapter were very hesitant about releasing women whose accomplishments were still good (maybe not as good as hers, but still strong) and who had shown their personality to be the right fit and hadn't creeped out their rushers in place of this woman.

In NPC (well, at least my chapter), you see these amazing girls on paper and are very interested, BUT their personality has to fit too. But if it does, then she's definitely a keeper. I think in this case it was one of those situations where we knew her grades and accomplishments were good. From what we had heard about her from her rec and the girls that knew her we assumed her personality was going to be great too, and of course that would make it a no brainer and she would have had a very good chance of getting a bid. In turned out that she came off very poorly in person due to the fact that she would only talked about how she loved all these little obscure things we did, and nobody really knew what she was about. So I think she might have screwed herself over...I think even just pleasant conversation might have worked in her favor, but the recitation of facts just turned everybody off and nobody could see themselves wanting to spend time with her.

Also, as a last point, I think in NPC interest in a GLO is good, but it's mostly about women that fit in with a chapters personality. Every year we have women that we are very interested in due to their resumes and recs and there is buzz about them. However, when they step through the door we struggle to find anything in common with them. This goes the other way too...maybe a woman had an average resume (still making all the GPA qualifications and such) and no rec, but she has the best personality and everybody is in love with her. In this PNMs case, she created a lot of buzz but the personality failed to match/work for us, and I think it is primarily because she only wanted to talk about us, not her. It made many women very skeptical about her intentions for researching these facts...was it because she loved us genuinely, loved us with an unhealthy obsession or was trying to trick herself in?

I agree too. Knowing the chapter founders, particulary an older chapter, would take me aback but other than that it's fine. When we host Spring Teas, we allow each sorority (with one or two chapters/sorority) to have a brag board. Alot of naraht's answers are on that board.

The PNM could use the information to ask more direct questions like naraht suggested. That's fine. If she goes on and on about how she liked the annual dodge ball tournament and couldn't wait to coach her team, yeah, that's over the line and creepy.

I am a nerd, I know, but here is my last analogy:
Say you are hiring a nanny for your daughter Petunia. On paper, Nancy Nanny has worked with Madonna's children, solved world hunger and invented the baby monitor. She's clearly going to be the first one you interview and if the personality is right you are going to pick her. The whole time she talks about researched facts about Petunia ("I love that she is the most liked girl in her preschool!" or "I heard she got five gold star stickers in her kindergarten class!") and gives you NOTHING about how her personality is as a person. Those accomplishments no longer matter, because the second woman you interview has such an outstanding personality that she will be the perfect match for taking care of Petunia. Nancy's qualifications were wasted because she gave you no indications she was a match. That's how I guess you could explain NPC rush sometimes.

I get what you're saying about the fit thing I guess, although I think the Nannie analogy didn't quite work :P.

I guess it's the differing structures, speaking specifically for my org (but it's similar elsewhere), we have a much longer time to "feel the woman out" before we extend an offer of membership.

Yeah, I thing the longer time period probably helps. We often have to make snap decisions based on very little conversation, which is not the ideal way but for NPC rush there really is no way to make it longer.

I would find D to be a bit wierd, and F to be flat out creepy. I was a chapter founder, and I can't even name every girl in my class. Granted, there were 65 of us, but I think that's what would make F even more creepy.

I am a legacy and had helped my older biological brothers study for their pledge exams. As such, I knew some of the Fraternity history (bolded above) before walking into my first rush event. However, I knew nothing of the chapter history since it was a different chapter (campus) then where my brothers pledged.

And for the record, during the rush parties, I did not go around telling members that the White Rose is the flower of Sigma Chi. :D

Really? I would have pegged you as that guy who ran up to the Rush Hostess and belting out "Sweetheart of Sigma Chi." I kid, I kid. :p

Well, that goes without saying. Get the Rush Hostess on your side and you are half way there. ;)

Actually, I sort of/kind of knew the "Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" before college. My Mother often served as an unofficial hostess (or House Mother as it were) for some of my brothers' chapter functions when they were undergraduates. More than a few times, the whole chapter would come to our house afterwards (day after or so) and serenade my Mother as part of their appreciation. :)

Speaking only on an NPC level...
This is where the interviewer can take control a little bit though. The woman may be spouting out facts because she is nervous and doesn't know what to say. Asking open ended personal questions to counter the fact spouting could help. For example, if she is talking about your philanthropy, you could ask about what community service she has done. If she's talking about grades, ask about her major and why she chose it.

Knowledge is power...use it wisely! It doesn't hurt to know the information, but it is all in what you do with it. We talk a lot about recruitment as an interview type process, and when you interview, you are expected to have researched the company in some way. While you may have all of those facts and figures, it doesn't mean you have to whip them out at the first instance. Using them to frame questions and then slip into your "resume" (recruitment profile) is fair game.
PNM: "So can you tell me more about your latest event with the Girl Scouts?"
Active: Yes...blah blah blah.
PNM: That sounds like it was a lot of fun! I was a volunteer scout leader for Troop 1337, We went to that same camp, we did this fundraiser, etc etc etc.

BUMP for a story.

The other night at rush a guy asked me about different activities we do. While I was talking about alumni events I mentioned Founder's Day and he said, "Oh, that's coming up isn't it?" I was surprised and said, "Yes it's October 13th - somebody's done his research." We kind of laughed it off, but it wasn't really all that awkward. He did however remember my unusual major from the chapter website, and told me that he remembered it - that was a little weird. I have an excellent memory, but I've learned you should sometimes play dumb to things you really shouldn't know or remember. I wouldn't say it hurt his chances, but it probably would have served him better to pretend he didn't know.

I hope he didn't send you flowers as a follow-up. That would be strange.

Especially if they were white carnations. :D

Stalker status!!!!!

I was waiting until the end to find the word that answers why it is not cool to know all that... STALKER. Why would a person want to know that going into recruitment? What purpose does it serve?

Knowing the letters, the colors, flower, philanthropy, maybe, but much more specific than that and I'm thinking maybe you should have spent your summer doing something fun instead of cramming for recruitment. I can tell you if you're picking a sorority for the history of the founders, your priorities are in the WRONG place. I've always thought it a shame that we can't tell the meaning behind our letters, because that WOULD be a thing to make your choices around. But since it doesn't work like that, it should be on finding loving and welcoming friends, not textbook data.

FYP.

Sometimes, a potential is expected to know some information going into rush/recruitment/whatever.

Haha, you guys are too much!

Post event update: no flowers, thank goodness!

:p

BTW, maybe that guy was just nervous. Nervousness turns some people into dorks like that.

I think it came off a lot stranger than it really was, and like I said it didn't hurt his chances - he got a bid!

Speaking strictly for my org/from NPHC lane, none of this would strike me as odd. An interest knowing these things says anything:

• the interest is simply memorizing facts (because some people thrive off of stats and facts, or perhaps it comes easy to them, like studying for an exam)
• they spent longer than the average person in getting to know our organization (and not just a person who just wants to join a club)
• they like to make an informed decision (which is important to me, i like to weigh all my options)
• they don't know how to sell themselves so they rely on this information to get by
• they don't have anything to sell about themselves, so they use this information to get by

after a couple interactions, a member should be able to differentiate where the interest falls. if an interest wants to spend their whole summer or semester (or multiple semesters) cramming this information, more power to them - as long as they understand that this isnt the sole aspect that earns you a membership invite.

and, IMO, if an interest spend all that energy knowing this information and was denied membership, i'd best not see them pop up as a member of another org, because then it was all an act.

True, and this is for ALL orgs. My question then, to NPC members, why do you put this info on your (public) sites and school records if there isnt any emphasis on knowing it until becoming members, which you would learn in your new member education period anyway? Who's the information for, the general public?

I know websites are for anyone who visits them, but im sure a high percentage of people who frequent our sites (especially chapter websites) are people interested in becoming members or affiliated in some way (working together on philantrophy, for example). For NPC, is it just a "showing off" thing, like "hey look at our history, isn't it awesome?"

im sorry, i can't think of a better way to get this point across. websites are meant to show off, but also be a resource. it's just as valid a way to get to know the chapter personality - after all, your website should be an electronic representation of what your chapter is like in person. Don't you want PNMs to take that in?

Exactly, to KSUViolet06 and RaggedyAnn. If an interviewer (member) has to take control of every conversation with a PNM/interest, it means they need to step their conversational skills up. Nerves are one thing, but I have no qualms with (and have done this) saying "time out - listen, don't give me the same ol 'i love community service, i want to be a member because i want to be part of a sisterhood and give back and i just LOVE maintaining high GPAs' because everyone tells me that.

Since we're trying analogies out, i think this is kinda like taking the SATs. Whether you study hardcore or just show up for the exam, everyone is getting between a 200-800 (or 2400, whatever it is now). For argument's sake:
--we know nothing about who's taking this exam
--200="all i know is the GLOs name and i just showed up to this event"
--800="i know all of the items listed in OP, created notecards and have all of your websites in my bookmarks folder."

If you get a 200, your pickings are slim - say, Lame-O Community College. If you wanted to increase your chances of getting into a better school, you'd have to do a LOT of extras to bump your chances, but even then, your best bet is, say, Lame-O Community College's Honors Program, or even Lame-O University.

No one wants to go to any Lame-O school.

At the same time, if you got an 800, you most definitely could get into Supermegaawesome University, but its not a surething. They too, would want to see your extras - but you wouldnt have to work as hard as getting into LU, which, still, no one wants to go to.

Ehh, point is, go for 600-700 and be awesome in person. put yourself in the running to be taken seriously as a potential member, but don't overdo it.

I think a few of these depend on how publicized the information is. If a chapter just recolonized within a couple years, they may know someone who was part of that or who was Greek at that school when it happened and it came up in the normal course of getting information. Suzy PNM to her friend "Tell me about the chapters at XYZ University", current Greek Member "Well, ABC just recolonized two years ago...". Not weird. If it was 15 years ago.. weird.

Knowing chapter founders? That's not something we were even required to know as PNMs. An NPC group starts out with a lot of founders. As for National founders.. knowing all 11 of ours would be weird. We learn that as PNMs, most can't recite them within a few years of graduating. You'd recognize the name, but probably not come up with them from memory.

Knowing how long the chapter had been around? Again, if it was recent, they would probably know. If it was a significant year (50th anniversary or something), that may have been publicized so they would know. "Oh! I saw in the Eastern Echo that your chapter is celebrating 35 years this year!" wouldn't be weird.

The GPA thing is well publicized before and during Recruitment in NPC. That chapter generally brags about it a lot and I would be glad that a PNM was paying attention to that.. I was always impressed with PNMs who were academically oriented.