Removal of Arab Americans from flight
 

As I was driving to work this morning, I was listening to WHUR 96.3 (local station in DC) and they were asking people to call in about this newly reported situation. Apparently, there were three Arab-Americans on a Northwest flight and the other passengers expressed that they did not feel comfortable flying with the Arab-Americans on board. The Northwest representatives requested that the Arab Americans remove themselves from the flight. The flight took off without them. :eek:

The callers, mostly were African American, responses ranged from utter outrage at Northwest Airlines and the passengers blatant discrimination to a total agreement with Northwest's actions.

I feel total and complete outrage. We are all justifiably scared; however, sanctioning this type of 'racial profiling' is truly only the beginning of a wider spread racial discrimination to come. I feel that we, of all people, should have more empathy. I also feel that we better recognize that if this type of treatment of Arab Americans is condoned, the door is slamming wide open for all other racial atrocities to take place.

Lawsuit
 

:eek:

This is awful. Unfortunately, it won't stop until someone gets slapped with a huge lawsuit!

well...
 

...I definitely think these Arab Americans should file a complaint. The only way to try to avoid future displays of frightened ignorance from the American public is for people to speak out. Namely, the victims of such discrimination need to express their outrage.

This is completely ridiculous. We shouldn't be blaming or even showing blatant disrespect and discrimination to our fellow Americans no matter what background they may be from. This is really appalling to say the least. This is time where we need to stand together and most importantly PRAY. How will they feel comfortable in a country where they are supposed to be "free" and "equal". The events that took place are tragic; however, we can't put our fellow Americans down who are of Arab or Middle Eastern decent.

I believe those three citizens should definitely file a civil suit against Northwestern for their racist attitudes and behaviors.

I saw this story on the news this morning, it really bothered me. I could not believe that Northwest took that approach. I'm in agreement with Dreamful One, they should seriously consider filing a civil suit.

The sad part is, most will not file suit.

Here in Boston they dragged Arabs out of their hotel rooms by because one of their last names was similar to one of the hijackers.

They were too afraid to even appear on tv after they were realesed by the FBI. And although they had their lawyer recount the details of their arrests to the public, they refused to pursue the case for fear of further harassment.

All across the country Arabs, Indians, and other Muslims are being shot and killed!

They are also being visited by Gov't agents. Most do not know their rights. One man let the FBI in because he thought he had to, and the FBI took several papers from his home. Note, the man was not a suspect or wanted in connection. Also, the FBI had no right to remove anything from the man's home, and should have at least advised him that he did not have to let them in at all.

I never understand when Blacks are unsympathetic to these injustices. Do we really think they forgot about us? If they implement all of these new intrusive laws, believe me, we will be the first victims of the injustice. Do we suddenly believe that we are invisible now?

indeed this is very sad.

the funny thing is these terrorist out there causing this trouble are clean cut and educated in the states.

people are scared, very scared. and this is the outcome. the FBI and police are questioning everyone with the trace of a muslim name or arab background for the protection of people, this is how they have caught alot of suspects.

i don't condone it, but i have mixed feelings about it. it does make you scared.

DITTO, everyone!!!!

I agree 100%. If those laws are implemented, they will definitely come back and haunt the blacks in this country.

:(

Actually, that is not how they have caught suspects. The FBI has had in its possession a master list of hundreds of people with connection to bin Laden and their whereabouts. But, those people were somehow able to get into and move about the US without questions or problems. Why have a list of potentially dangerous people, and not even prevent them from entering the country?


And, some, the US has known were here for years. They questioned local cabbies who had ties with bin Laden during the embassy bombings in Africa, and let them go free. Now how effect is it to harrass innocent people when you don't even want to keep the guilty in custody?

One of those cabbies was the guy from Chicago (I believe) who was able to obtain several duplicate liscenses without arrousing suspicion. Now really, what is the malfunction??

Its not fair to go overboard to cover up mistakes. Let's do the right thing the first time, and there won't be any questions of civil rights violations.

people are scared of what they do not know about...that goes for all people.

DITTO!

Maybe now the Arab community realize how African American feel.

It's good that Blacks are realizing the connections b/w the recent racial profiling of Arab Americans, and the "racial profiling" that we have felt ever since the establishment of this country.
A friend of mine expressed concern that President Bush basically told the American public to leave the Arab Americans alone, when Blacks have been targets forever. NOW, this type of profiling is more than just frowned upon, but adamently and unmistakenly opposed. It's a shame that this type of event, is the one thing that could make the American public see that we should not single out, and mistreat people based on religion, race, and ethnicity.

Fear and stupidity Grrrr....
 

It is just too sad that there are too many people in America who are AFRAID and STUPID. Anybody who would justify or perpetrate any of the anti-Arab behavior that has been going on in this country is a pure idiot.

:mad: TRSimon:mad:

I am very sorry but I would not have wanted to fly with them either. Now I know what you all will say, "How can an AA person say something like that?" Well I am saying what most are feeling but afraid to say. If I am on a plane and someone of Arabian descent(sp) is on the plane I will remove myself and find other means of transportation, if they are not removed. Now I agree with the airline, it is better to be safe than sorry. There were other box cutters and knives found on other planes that were grounded, so we have no way of knowing who is a threat and who is not. So my opinion is, it is better to risk a lawsuit and save many innocent(sp) lives than to be afraid of giving out a little money.

I can really empathize with what you're saying. I am not afraid to say that I will feel trepidation when flying, taking the subway, attending a large public event, etc. I do not; however, place that fear with a person of Arab American descent. On 9.11.01, my innocence was taken away from me. My trust in the freedoms that I was born with has been significantly reduced. This horrendous act was carried out by members of one race. The people that share this race will now,unfortunately, understand the racial profiling that is a way of life for us.

If institutions, authority figures, security personnel, law enforcement agents are given permission to legally racially profile Arab Americans, where will it stop? Will we be excluded? I think not. Why? Because people who have racial hatred in their hearts will take advantage and use this as an excuse to victimize ALL ethnic groups.

While I to understand where you are coming from, please understand me when I say if we do not take this percaution and check them ALL then how will our safety be granted. I, personally, don't think it was racial profiling as much as I think it was a percautionary action. Take a moment and think about this, what if they did not remove those persons and they hijacked that plane, then everyone would critisize the airline for not checking them and we would blame the airline for being careless, in light of what just happend.

I understand both sides of this issue. However uneasy I may have felt boarding that particular flight, I would have to realize that this (by definition) IS racial profiling. Racial profiling can appear to have both positive and negative effects, and the intention of the racial profilers can be a "good" one, for example, preventing further terrorism by singling out certain "suspicious" individuals (that happen to be of a certain group). Although this type of profiling "makes sense," it is just a step away from a group of people being detained and mistreated based on religion and ethnicity. For instance, many Arab Americans have been targeted for the actions of certain extreme Muslim terrorist groups. However, the overwhelming majority of Arab Americans are Christian...which does not fit the stereotype.
While you may think even this type of profiling is justified, think about the store clerk that follows black customers around because you "never know which one of them is going to be shoplifting or robbing my store...you might as well be safe than sorry and get them all." Terrorism is more extreme than this example, but racial profiling is conducted regardless of the extremity of the offense...nonetheless, it should not be encouraged or tolerated.

Sequel,

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the point of clarification for me is that :

(1) EVERYONE should have the same detailed, unique screening process

(2) Northwest went a step above by removing the Arab Americans from the flight and allowed the flight to proceed.

Being the devil's advocate here: Let's just say that I look like I could be of Arab descent yet I'm really Black. Do the Northwest officials really believe that my name is Tishaun Jackson or have I assumed someone else's identity? Point is, I have cousins that look like they are of Arab descent; yet, they are your everyday black folk. So, where does one draw the line so that we can all feel safe? What is really feeling safe? Cuz the caucasian guy with the coked out lookin eyes, long stringy hair, and the strange, heavy-looking back pack causes me the same amount of discomfort that someone of Arab descent might.

Like Sistarisin said on this issue we must agree to disagree. While I understand that racial profiling is racial profiling, in this case my opinion is it was the correct thing to do. The airline was possibly saving houndreds of live by doing so. Now, I don't agree with them taking off without them if they were innocent, I am glad that they took the extra percautionary step. Following me in the store b/c I am Black cannot compare to saving houndreds of lives. Following me around a store is just plain ignorant and I will check you on the issue if you do so, but making sure that America does not repeat history is ok with me. I am not saying in any way that in this short time we have forgotten what happened b/c we NEVER will, but "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it."

Uh, the store analogy was just an analogy. However, one "justified" instance of racial profiling is not far from another "unjustified" one. As Black people, we are hypocrites if we believe so. We must think beyond the short term fear and need for safety, to the long term ramifications of all of this.

I read the story where a pilot refused to fly because of an Arab passanger and nowhere in the article did it mention that the Arabic gentleman who was removed from this plane was guilty of anything in any way. He did nothing but get on a plane trying to go somewhere.

THis was not just. THis was not right. THis was a direct violation of our freedoms. Hightened security on planes does not mean racial profiling. I want to know that nobody on my plane has a knife or a gun, not their race.

It is really just one step from this type of behavior in my opinion to the incidents of violence and murder against Arab Americans that we see going on. It is all just wrong, and we as black people need to fight for their rights (because if the govt, or any corporation, or business entity take them, ours are next)

note for all: Arabs, and Arabic. An Arabian is a horse.

Need better solutions
 

Problems with racial profiling:

1)Who determines who is suspicious-passengers, cashiers, the luggage boy? When it comes to races, many people have a hard time telling the difference between people of the same race, let alone people who may look like a certain race.

2)What makes one suspicious- "oh, he looks Arab/Muslim", "he/she is wearing different clothing", he/she's walking slowly, or looks uncertain/nervous. How does one define suspicious?

3)We check all those that look Arab or seem suspicious to ensure safety and oops we overlook the (whatever other race) person with a bomb. Well this situation makes us vulnerable and prey to other acts of violence in the friendly skies.

Racial profiling is exactly that RACIAL PROFILING. Whether it happens in a store or on a plane. One may say that the store profiling doesn't matter cause it's not to the degree of saving lives. Overall, the method doesn't work on one level or the next and one can't use a wrong to do right. The real problem is the ignorace that people are so quick to fall for. People want a fast and easy solution to a huge problem and don't want to take the time out to contemplate a justified and long-term solution.

So what are other solutions to the problem? My opinion- Airports need to correct their security measures. There are plenty of airports that have become laxed in taking precautions for customer safety and customer service. Airports are forgetting to do regular maintenance on planes, they will lose your luggage at the drop of a dime, delay you for no reason, and let you through the detectors because they attributed the alarm going off due to an earring-I've seen it happen.

So it's not the race that we should have a problem with. It's our own system. Everything that happens is give and take. These terrorists could only do but so much. The rest of their mission was aided by the inefficiencies of our airports.

We had this discussion in one of my classes (my school is predominately white) and of course most of the minorities didn't support racial profiling, but the majority well you know.....

Allowing racial profiling is just another step in the wrong direction towards the advancement for ALL minorities.

I see both sides. But lets' face it, everybody will not be pleased. People will be offended one way or another. My cousin said something interesting the other day. He said that right now he's more afraid of people of Middle Eastern decent than the KKK.

Let me make something a little more clear, I am not trying to justify what the airline did all I am saying is that I understand why it was done. Again in my opinion, and it is only that, my opinion, if I were on a flight and an Arab was on the flight "I" would feel more comfortable finding other means of transportation and it would be my perrogative(sp) to do so. Fear begets violence, not removing someone from a plane b/c they may be a part of a group who kills. All persons responsible for this act of violence has not been caught, so is it not only fair that they check out all who fit the "profile"?

Airline Rights
 

from my understanding the airlines have the right to "refuse service" and remove someone from a flight if the majority of the other passengers feel uncomfortable by that passenger's presence. either the one person has to get off - or the rest of the plane gets off.... financially it makes more sense.

not saying its morally/ethically/racially right, but i dont know if they will have a case against the airlines....

I have to agree with Soror sequel on this issue.

People are just too afraid. Airlines do have the right to refuse service if they please and from what I know, the majority of the people wanted those people removed so...what were they supposed to do.

I think that eventually we will be able to be more tolerable, but right now, it is TOO SOON!

Airlines are losing millions per day. So if they have to hurt the feeling of a few to make happy the majority, they are going to do just that. Especially in light of the fact that those in question JUST MAY be involved in something.

No one knows, but I think not many are willing to find out the hard way.

Especially considering the fact that there are a gang of Arab people still roaming around with hidden agendas. That mess is scary, I'm sorry. Crop dusters have been grounded, trucks carrying hazardous materials are being stopped and drivers asked for identification, etc. for fear of a bioterrorist attack. Sept. 11 was scary but you don't want to see what can happen if fools just start spraying anthrax randomly in the air.

It would be different if it were like Oklahoma (sad as that was) where there was a sense that that was the ONLY act that was planned to be committed. From what I can see, the agenda is set and it is to take out as many Americans as possible...point...blank.

I am scheduled to fly to Atlanta from Los Angeles in three weeks. What's more is I am going for the APHA (American Public Health Association)Annual meeting, discussing public health, including bioterrorism, etc. The Surgeon General, CDC, NIH, etc. will be there. There is a HUGE threat of some sort of "plan" to thwart the conference, take out as many health officials as possible. Guess what folks, I ain't havin' it. I don't care how it makes me look and I'll be damned if I am made to feel like I should be empathetic based on the fact that I am Black. I wanted to cry when I saw an Arab man on TV saying he was removed from a plane because people were not comfortable. The other side of me was like "Sorry holmes, call the homies and tell 'em you ain't comin."

The fact is that I promised my son that, barring an accidental crash, mommy will be back...and I plan to do that by any means necessary. I am indeed looking at folks sideways if I feel even the slightest threat. Unfortunately after Sept. 11, the slightest threat means just being on the damn plane. So I am sorry but Hassan, Sayed and Abdul CANNOT get on the plane with me next month.

Piggy-backing Soror sequel, I will leave if need be.

It makes me mad because I am very afraid and I have debated whether or not to go. Should I ride a train and potentially take an entire day to get there. Who's to say trains ain't next on the list. I have to have my own back because I am ONE person and President Bush ain't thinkin' about my a$$.

Sorry so long.

Airline rights, and then some!
 

On the topic of airline rights:

Those people were refused service because of their appearance. They were screened properly and gave no cause to those on the flight to be alarmed. They just happened to be the wrong color. If they don't win the suit because of fearful judges and bad timing, you can bet your backside they will win the appeal.

Hello, steel trap discrimination suit!!
I just got a discount to fly Northwest in the mail, and they don't EVER have to worry about getting my money.

At least one of the parties is seeking legal counsel, and he should. Now what happens to all of you flag waving bigots who are afraid when black people are in season again? Especially after you have supported some bonehead discriminatory practices into legality?

Yeah, just keep on writing off your common sense on your fear and bigotry.

I have to agree to disagree on this one, but I pray none of you ever have to be swabbed down for the gunpowder test or searched because you are traveling with a friend or loved one who isn't even an Arab, but looks like one.

I have, and all you fearful bigots need a check and a talk with the LORD, because somehow, I don't think He digs the fact that folks claiming to be his people are supporting and perpetrating this kind of oppression. Then again, I guess the KKK likes to think they are his people too, but they aren't.

:D
TRSimon

Re: Airline rights, and then some!
 

My thoughts exactly!

analogy...
 

This is interesting because Blacks have been terrorized by Whites in this country for 400 years. But if one of us walked on a plane w/ a bunch of White people, and said to the stewardess "Um, excuse me, but these people look very much like the White people who enslaved my family, raped my female relatives, systematically discriminated against me for 400 years, arrested me just because I'm Black, and constantly get off for shooting my people just because they have a badge...I have been terrorized my whole life, and I'm not comfortable flying w/ them so please escort them off the plane."
Not only would the authorities be called, but they would probably drag us off in straight jackets. Saying all of that to say this: right now there is a very powerful propaganda machine that has a lot of us feeling like we're "Americans united", and for the purposes of finding survivors, and claiming the bodies of our loved ones, that is a good thing.
But let us not forget that in the previous nine wars that this country has fought, Blacks have done the same thing in hopes that after the war, we too would FINALLY be considered "American" and benefit from all that comes w/ that title, you know, like not being lynched, getting fair treatment in the legal system, not facing a one in three chance of going to jail or prison, getting an equal education in terms of access to the basics like books and teachers.
Blacks have been terrorized in this country for so long that we think it's normal and don't even recognize it as terrorism. And while we rally around the flag, our children are dying from terrorism in the ghettos, our brothers are shuttled out to jail in terrorist paddy wagons, and while a few of us manage to make it out and get a good job, we can still be pulled over for driving while Black, or shot by the boys in blue for looking suspicsious (sp?). But if we were to respond to our terrorism the way this country wants to respond to bin Laden (please recognize the fact that they have convicted this man w/o showing us any evidence...oh, but that is exactly what they do to us also...) then we would be shot down on site (which can happen anyway).
So we can rally around this flag if we want to...it almost serves as some kind of comfort to know that for once, we are not at the bottom...but wait until this blows over...we'll still go shopping at the 8 out of 10 stores owned by Arabs in our community, we'll go back to being hunted by cops, go back to dying faster than any other race from any other diseases because we can't afford anyother medicine except prayer (which I KNOW changes things).
I'm sorry this is soo long, but I grew up as a Black woman in Germany. What is happening in this country right now w/ the propaganda and empty rhetoric is exactly the way Hitler began his campaigns. It's scary to see Black people who know what it's like to be on the bottom, take part in it.

OK this is getting out of hand. People let us be realistic here. We are simply talking about the welfare and safety of all. Now put yourself in the shoes of those who lost family members in this tragedy. Would you not want them to keep the search going until they found them all, even if it took them removing people from planes or whatever the case maybe. What if your mother, father sister, brother, husband, or child went to work or wherever and was killed like these people were, you mean to tell me that you would not want them to find the killers and possibly prevent more deaths by any means necessary? I don't think any of you would have a problem with it then. I lost someone I knew in this foolish act and she left behind 3 beautiful children and you know what the smallest one said tell mommy to come back home I'll be good. She does not understand that mommy will NEVER come back home. So I want them to get those bastards and I don't give a dayum how they do it.

Soror Deltabrat, Ditto!!!

Re: analogy...
 

Yes some of what you said was true, but also realize just b/c of my position on the subject don't think for a minute that I rally around any flag or any white person, b/c I don't. I never have or never will think this is MY country. But when it comes to protecting me and mine there is no such thing as going to far. Whether you realize it or not we will always be on the bottom no matter what is going on. And trust me they knew when it happened who it was. We both know good and well that they are not going to show anyone any proof. The actions of our government have always and will always be a secret. And you are preaching to the wrong people if you are worried about our legal system and our people going to jail you need to be telling it to the mislead youth that are committing these crimes and breaking the law. And I think we all will agree with you on the fact that our legal system is unfair to blacks, but talking about it is not going to change it you need to be about it.

Re: Re: analogy...
 

Sister, you are right...we do need to be about it, I agree w/ you whole heartedly in that regard especially when it comes to the legal system. THat is why I am pursuing a legal career and developing systems that will allow for (I hope) Black people to finally find some rest from terrorism. I am also working in conjunction w/ other like minded Black people to liberate our young people from this violent way of life. Hopefully our programs will make a huge impact, and I ask that you and others would pray for us as we continue to fight.
I know how hard this is...I am still waiting for word on 2 people as well. But I cannot justify hurting innocent people just to try and keep me and mine safe.
THat is the same, very same argument that White's have been using against us for years...especially at the height of the lynching campaigns. The fact that many of us are alright with the fact that this country can go to war w/o one shred of evidence that would stand up even in our own court rooms, is apalling. THe problem w/ that argument is that it is reactionary, and short sighted. "If one of you or your kind hurt me (I think, because at this point, we still don't know who did it) I feel justified in wiping you all out because you may think the same" just doesn't make sense...especially since none of us reacted the same way against white people when TImothy McVeigh destroyed those innocent lives. If we who subscribe to that argument, that it is ok to discriminate (terrorize) against whole groups of people because one of them hurt us, then we need to check ourselves.
How many of us who believe that way, stopped riding on busses w/ White people after Timothy McVeigh was accused? How many of us stop riding on planes w/ white people after that? How many of us accused the entire White race of possibly planning our distruction after Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or McVeigh? Not many. So why is it alright to do so now when the victims are Arab?
Let's ask ourselves, are we really ready to DIE, or go to WAR because we think, that one group may have had something to do w/ what happened? Especially considering that it will be Blacks who are sent to the front lines, as we always are? What happens if we go to war (and against whom would we go?) against Afganistan for example, and then in 2 months a group in Japan takes credit for the bombings? Or if we find out that the terrorists were really a part of a Canadian renegade group of Indigenous people? How can we even think of supporting a war against a people who have never been found guilty?
If this country can go to war, w/ no proof, and have the full support of the people here, what is to stop the government from finding us (Black people) guilty of anyting w/ no evidence?
As far as always being on the bottom, well I respectfully must disagree. If that is the case, then what is the point? I am a follower of the teachings of Christ, and I have come to the conclusion that if Jesus did not lie, then there is no excuse for us to be on the bottom. Didn't He say that we would do greater things than He? Didn't He say "let this mind be in you which is also in Christ JEsus"? Doesnt' the Word say, that where the Spirit is, there is LIBERTY? If God is real, and I know not everyone accepts this premise, but If God IS REAL...then we DO NOT HAVE TO STAY AT THE BOTTOM. Seriously. Because if we do, then what is the point in living--if you know that we will never advance, never have success as a people, then what is the point? As soon as we realize that our freedom is based on OUR ability to see truth and act in our OWN BEST INTEREST...as soon as we realize that our FREEDOM is not negotiable, then we can COLLECTIVELY get somewhere. My own personal philosophy is that I can not be a true success as long as a represent a people who are enslaved. That is why I am and will continue to dedicate my life to the freedom of Black people.
Sister, I don't mean to imtimate that you rally around the flag :). But if we accept that it is alright to start a war w/ no proof, and think that it's OK for the gov't to act in secret on something so pivitol, then let's also recognize that it was that type of thinking that allowed for the Tuskeegee experiment, and the four year bombing raids that this country committed (IN SECRET) during Nixon's presidency against Cambodia, (a NEURTRAL AND INNOCENT) country during the Veitnam war, and the bombing of the pharmaceutical company in Sudan that destroyed our African brothers and sister's ability to get the life support medicine they needed. If we don't start thinking outside of this American box,then I fear that the bombing of those towers and the pentagon were only the beginning.

This conversation should not be centered around Black people and White people. We're losing sight of the point b/c apparently many Blacks and Whites would not feel safe flying with a Muslim. The point is to look beyond the immediate threat of danger and need for safety. We need to understand what the implications of allowing racial profiling (even in instances such as this) to occur in society. For years, Blacks have made a point of NOT being judged based on our appearance and race. Why is it okay for Arab Americans and other Muslims to be judged? It is not okay. My heart aches for those impacted by these terrorist attacks...but I cannot condone the treatment of those Arab Americans on the flight. I agree that the airline reserves the right to refuse services to people...but this refusal should not be solely based on race, religion, and/or ethnicity. When I hear Amerikkkans say things such as...and I quote "We should round up all of the Muslims, the good ones and the bad ones...because we can't tell the difference...and question them," I am angered. This country has been too consumed by ignorance and we cannot allow such tragedies to bring out, and accentuate, that ignorance. We need to be weary of the snowball affect...one incident leads to another, and another, and another...who's to say when it should stop?

For the people who agree with racially profiling the Arab Americans, would you feel the same way if the terrorists had been African or African Americans? Meaning, the racial profiling we've experienced thus far we'll be taken to another level. Will you eagerly agree to remove yourself from a flight because someone who happens to be the same race has perpetrated such a horrendous crime?

I have been trying to figure out how we got on black and white also. But LQ you say that they passed security measures and nothing was detected, but that was the case the first time and now thousands are dead so what do you suggest we do. Let us be honest with each other here, do you actually believe that the US has no proof and if they did they would tell us. When did the gov't get so open and honest, b/c no one told me. And I also am a follower of Christ and until we as a people can come together and stop killing ourself we WILL always be on the bottom. Does the Bible not say an eye for an eye, so if we ignore what has happened and not do any and all things possible to find those responsible it will be open season on America. And whether or not this is my, your or their America, I live here and I want it as safe as possible. No matter how they do it.

proof
 

I don't recall saying that they passed security measures the first time, I think someone else did. I don't know enough about the security measures to comment on htat.
The reason I made analogies to the Black/White issue is because the relationships between Whites and Blacks set the tone, and are related to racism of all people, no matter what country they are from. Like the quote I have below, if we don't understand how White supremacy is working through this (and other) situation, then everything else that we do understand about it is just off.
Do I honestly believe the gov't has no proof...well I don't know. NOne of us do. But American history shows that this government will do what it wants, when it wants, proof be damned. Look at the cases I mentioned in previous posts...What proof did the government have in any of those cases? Have they ever needed proof? No. Never. And we as citizens rarely learn from our history (or learn our history at all) so we don't even stop to question. in fact, other countries are beginning to demand proof as well. GErmany, Pakistan, and other European countries have finally realized that "bin Laden hates freedom" just is not going to cut it as far as proof is concerned. I am glad that some countries are at least aware of the fact that war should not be predicated on emotional, logicless arguments.
As far as coming togeher to stop killing ourselves, I agree. In addition, we need to understand that we are killing ourselves because we are still suffering from the effects of slavery.
Here's why I say that: If you have twin daughters, alike in every way humanly possible, except one has brown hair, and one has black. Say you treat the black haired girl with allof the respect and dignity that human life deserves. You pour every ounce of goodness that is within you, into the black haired child. You giver her every opportunity she will ever need to be a success and happy in whatever she decides to do w/ her life.
Then you have the brown haired girl. And you do the exact opposite w/ her. You beat her, allow her to be raped, destroy her very ability to see herself as human. YOu deny her every opportunity, you kill her spirit.
THen the girls turn 18, and you realize you made a mistake in treating them the way you did for all of their lives. So you apologize, admit you were wrong, and say to the girls "Girls, I was wrong, and I'm sorry. NOw go out and be productive citizens."
Now do you think that those girls are going to be able to live a happy life? Even the Black haired girl is going to be twisted and warped from this experience and never truly be able to see the brown haired sister as an equal. And she will act accordingly and teach her children to do the same. The brown haired girl...well her life is essentially ruined and she will constantly battle to see herself as human.
Saying that to say, that this is what happened to us as Black people for 400 years. And after slavery, we did not get counseling to address our psychoses, neither did we recieve access to all of the things (tangible and intangible) that the other "sister" got. We still have trouble seeing ourselves as human--so understandibly, "coming together" is not going to be enough to stop us from killing ourselves. If we don't go to the root of the problem, then we'll face another century of surface discussions that don't address the issues that Black people face.
Sorry for the length, but it is an important issue. Yes the Bible says that, so the the Qu'ran, and every other holy book. And eachof them also say something to the effect of "Vengence is mine, turn the other cheek". But I think to simply use any of those scriptures and pray in ignorance for our own version of justice is unhealthy.
Don't you even want to know WHY someone would do something like this to other people? Maybe if we get to the root we will find that America has sewn seeds of destruction throughout the world for the past 400 years. At some point the world will provide a harvest. Again, sorry for the length, but I really appreciate the chance to discuss topics like these with other intelligent Black women. It is a rare opportunity inded. By the way, for the rest of the non-Western world, America has enjoyed its own version of open season. When will we stop defining ourselves by man-made borders and start to see the larger, human issue?

All of this going back and forth is not going to bring us any closer to agreeing so let me say I will agree to disagree:)

Soror, it's not about agreeing. This should be a forum for intelligent discussion and debate. No one is trying to make others agree with their point of view. If we all agreed on topics such as this one, it would be a boring world. It is, however, important to be able to articulate differing viewpoints effectively, which I think we have accomplished.
I agree with using Black and white relations in America as an analogy, I was one of the first to do so. However, that, in and of itself, is a heated topic. I just didn't want us to go of on THAT tangent because, to be honest with you, some people may have some feelings that may be a bit too harsh for a forum such as this.

Soror, I am aware of what type of forum this is and what it is for. I was not saying that we should agree, I was stating a type of closure for my postings in this thread, that is why I said I would agree to disagree.