Wear letters at a bar??
 

This is more for Sorority women than Fraternty men...

I have recently heard from two people that there are sororities that are allowed to wear their letters out at bars (one supposedly encourages it, which I find hard to believe). I didn't know if this was true, I searched both alcohol policies, but did not find anything in there directly stating they shouldn't. Please, any info. would help. For now I will leave out the names of the 2 organizations I heard of doing this, if you want to know, please, PM me.

Um... I'm pretty sure ALL NPC sororities discourage the display of letters in situations where alcohol is present/being consumed.

So if those two sororities are NPC, it would be a no.

If one of those is Alpha Gamma Delta, it's a DEFINITE no.

I know of one NPC chapter around here that has members who wear their letters to the bar... all the time. I've also seen their alumnae do the same thing, so I just figured it was ok in their organization. I thought it was strange, but never really asked about it.

Alumnae and collegians don't always follow NPC rules and guidelines in their everyday lives. Just because they think it's OK doesn't make it OK.

I've seen alums wearing letters to the bar. While letters are something we probably shouldn't wear, there's a big difference between drinking in letters and just hanging out with friends and drinking in letters and acting the shitfaced fool.

Do you mean like wearing lettered hoodies/t-shirts to a bar?

I don't think it's appropriate to wear shirts/hoodies/etc to the bar, especially if you are going to drink.

We were always told as collegiates, that we were to never drink, go to a bar or a club or even a party that served alcohol wearing letters.

Yes that is true. I remember being told by some of the older girls that "drinking in letters was reserved for alumnae." I never understood why it was ok for alums to do that. If it's "disrespectful" to do when you are a collegiate, then it's "disrespectful" to do it as an alum. It's not like you stop representing your org once you become an alum.

Oh, I never said, "Even though it's not ok, it must be because they drink in letters." I mean, I thought it might be ok in their organization. This is going back to shortly after I was initiated. I saw them drinking in letters, I knew we couldn't in my organization, but I didn't know about theirs. And even today, I'm not about to lecture them concerning the rules regarding wearing letters and drinking.

And yes, they wear jackets, t-shirts, hoodies... everything... at parties, at mixers, and out to the bars (the corner bars, not the clubs - that might be weird clothing for a club).

I mean if you are a wet organization then I don't see any problem with it. I think an individual should always try to be respectful and not act a fool when representing your organization, but at the same time if you're drinking responsibly then why not?

I had a whole big thing typed out but I lost it so there ya go.

Honestly, it all boils down to image. There's a difference between my going to the bar without letters and making an ass of myself, even if everyone knows I'm an Alpha Gam, than there is by wearing letters in the situation and proving it, and giving off the perception that ALL Alpha Gams are drunken assholes.

I think it was an LC who came to our chapter while I was a collegian who put it this way: If you would take a kid there, in that context, then letters would be OK. For instance, say a bar serves good food, and you take your kid or your niece or nephew there for lunch or dinner. Letters would be OK (as long as you're not drinking). If you're going later at night, and taking a child would not be appropriate, then wearing letters would probably not be appropriate either.

Obviously lavalieres are easy to forget and I don't really take issue with that. It's the difference in seeing a flier posted on a light pole versus seeing a billboard hanging from the Goodyear Blimp.

Rules banning drinking while in letters are not common among fraternities. They are common in most if not all NPC sororities.

Eh. Chacun à son goût. Vive la différence!

Exactly. Even the other greeks take notice. Our newer members would always approach me at a party and ask, "Why are they wearing their letters?" assuming that they weren't supposed to be wearing them while drinking, either. It's just a respect thing to me. And like alphagam says... it's one thing for people to be aware you're in a sorority and you drink... it's another to be drinking with letters on and to have everyone at a bar or party feel justified in their thinking that all sorority girls are drunks.

I mean, if I'm getting ready to go out, what's the difference if I put on a shirt with letters, or one without. Quite frankly, why these girls are wearing t-shirts out every weekend is beyond me. Let's class things up a little, ladies! :)

I don't see it as such a big deal. I've seen members from every fraternity (that visits our local bar) and every sorority in letters at the bar at one point or another.

In fact a few seconds ago I was looking through some chick's Facebook pictures and some of them include pics of her and her sisters in letters at the bar.

The difference in my mind is whether the National Organization allows or supports it. One woman told me that this specific organization supports it, as it is a way for them to get their "branding" out there. I know that people might do it, no matter what a National Bylaw says, but again, if they support it, it's a different story. I personally never wear letters to a bar, lord knows we have enough trouble fighting off stereotypes, I don't need to add to it.

Okay despite my cry of vive la différence!, I will make a comment on behalf of those who don't impose this rule.

The problem with it, it seems to me, is that it automatically equates drinking with getting drunk and making a fool of one's self. Yeah, I know we're talking about college students, but to me, saying "don't drink in letters" for the reasons you have given is pretty much the same as saying "don't wear letters when you drink because we don't think you, our sisters, are capable of drinking responsibly." To me, it seems much more to the point to say "Remember that when you wear letters that you represent ABG to the world; be careful not to do anything while wearing letters that would reflect badly on ABG."

As the Greeks might say, moderation in all things; nothing in excess. (But yeah, we are talking about college students. :D)

Follow whatever rules your org has seen fit to adopt, but don't look at other orgs askew if they have decided on different rules.

First of all, it's just easier and more to the point to say "Don't drink in letters," rather than fall into the gray area involving people using their "good judgment" to determine whether their behavior is appropriate and upholding the ideals of the organization.

And it's not that we don't trust our own members, but I know that even I've been a little more drunk than I originally intended at times, and when I go out at 10pm, I don't know what's going to happen between then and 3am when I roll back to my apartment. We all know we've had those nights when we've said, "Oh, I'll just have one or two," but those two turn into ten.

And secondly,

I'm not judging other sorority members if their organizations allow this to happen. From what I understand, there are many fraternities that don't have any rules concerning this. But from what I can tell, there are many people who are drinking in letters when their organizations say that they can't. And yes, when you choose to ignore the rules set forth by your national organization, and post pictures on Facebook of yourself breaking those rules, I might lose just an ounce of respect for you... especially when all you have to do is put on another shirt.

I don't know of any fraternity that does have a rule banning drinking in letters. Is there one?
It's easier, but not more to the point, in my opinion. More to the point would be to expect members to use good judgment and uphold the ideals of the organization in any situation, including while drinking, since that is what the actual purpose of the rule is, but it would be a harder standard.

I'm not criticising AST or any other org for adopting a "no drinking in letters" rule. I'm just pointing out that there are different ways to look at this particular issue.

Even at my school, with only three NPC sororities, the rules vary dramatically. Although Alpha Sigma Tau has a strict "no drinking in letters" policy, our alcohol rules have a lot of gray areas. The other sororities on campus do not follow their rules as seriously as we do. I believe they both have a policy, but it is pretty much overlooked and they have gained their reputations through that. I like our rule because it assures that we retain our reputation! As for wearing letters to a bar, I can't believe that they would do that even without having a rule. If you were at a bar and saw a group of girls with ABC or XYZ sorority letters on, wouldn't you remember the next time you see those girls? The first thought in your head would be "wow, those ABC/XYZ girls were trashed last weekend!"

I am actually not 100% sure it is an international policy or not, but I've never known a Gamma Phi who would wear letters while drinking. Even if you are behaving yourself, the question is whether or not that is an appropriate place for letters. I'd say better safe than sorry, and from a pr standpoint it would be best not to wear your letters while drinking. It is a double-standard - fraternities seem to have no problem with it.

We are advised to not wear our letters to frat houses, bars or other places where alcohol is present.

I don't know of any fraternity that has a rule concerning this, but I couldn't say that none of them do, because I simply haven't looked up rules stated by every fraternity. So there's definitely a possibility that none of them restrict the wearing of letters while drinking.

And I know you're not criticizing AST, I'm just giving my point of view, as well :) And yes, in an ideal world, you could simply say to members, "Use good judgment," and everyone's definition of those words would be the same, and no one would drink too much or act inappropriately while wearing letters.

But in reality, that doesn't happen. And just like we sometimes judge potential new members for being crazy and out of control while drunk, I'm sure they do the same thing with us. And I know that not all ASTs are perfect, and I'm sure that there have been a few that have done ridiculous things while drunk (and members from other sororities probably have, also), and I'm glad that my organization restricts those people from wearing letters to the bar so that everyone out that night won't think, "Wow, those are what the ASTs are like." As everyone always says here (generally referring to hazing incidents), actions of a few shouldn't be attributed to the entire organization... but it's human nature, and it happens.

I'd say just do what you want (within reason), fuck what anyone thinks.

I do not have a problem being in a bar or around alcohol. If I make a commitment to one or two then you will be hard pressed to find me doing otherwise. Being in a bar (even with letters) does not make you an alcoholic, an incontrollable drinker, or a bad person.

If I saw a group of women in their letters drinking, the only time I would think twice about it is if they were actually drunk. Just being present there doesn't mean they are going to exhibit poor behavior. Half the time, no one needs the letters on if they are drinking because if they start acting crazy someone will most certainly point it out.

Being around alcohol in letters isn't the problem. Alcohol is not the problem. It's people with piss poor judgment that are the problem.

If your org. says it's okay, then it's okay. If your org. says it's not, then it's obviously not. But I'm not out there worrying about so and so and their org.'s repuatation. It's not that deep.

Letters at the bar...
 

I agree with the fact that drinking excessively in letters is poor judgement. That's why I thought it was odd that the year I graduated from Penn State-University Park, I would say that a handful of chapters actually had "XYZ bar tour" shirts made up. I don't mean one or two girls in a chapter, I mean all of the seniors actually graduating. The point of the "bar tour" is to drink heavily-and (many, not all) Penn Staters are known for doing it well. I actually went on my bar tour with my sisters but, we had other stupid saying shirts made up for that reason alone.

One chapter that was on probation wore shirts that said something along the lines like, "We are on probation-so we are wearing our letters" on the back and the front had letters.

I don't really drink much but, when I do-I try not to wear my letters because I know how bad I can get.

Wow. That's just sad.

I think we would have laughed at anyone wearing letters in a bar. Even in my little hick college town, you dress up to go out! We did, however, have an "exemption" to wear our letters to bid night party (before they did away with that!) and Pikefest every year. All 4 NPC groups on campus would wear bid shirts (with full sewn on letters) to bid night parties and Pikefest where drinking was rampant and excessive. I guess since all groups participated we got away with it.

***But...for the record, AOII does not allow drinking in letters!

Ditto.

And besides, I think we would have dressed up a little bit to go out, even just to some bar, than wear a lettered t-shirt. If we wore a t-shirt out to a bar, it was for a basketball game or something.

I won't claim to know our national policy 100%, but I actually don't think it addresses drinking alcohol in our letters. However, every chapter I advise does address the issue to some degree in their chapter's Code of Conduct, which does allow for more variation due to campus climate. I know at least one chapter with which I work has rules in thier COC about smoking cigarettes in thier letters, too.

It's a debate between some other advisors with which I work, but from an alumna perspective, I fall on the side of modeling responsible behavior. If I'm wearing my letters and we all decide to go get dinner or something, I don't see a problem with having a glass of wine with my meal. It's like the others said- I believe there is a big difference between simply drinking in my letters, and getting drunk in my letters.

Ours did. We had to hold it between two fingers (not let it hang from our mouths) and cross our legs.

I wish I were kidding. Our chapter's code of standards was SUPER old. We used to joke about that rule all the time.

I agree. We're not allowed to drink in letters. We can't even have a business with "bar" or "pub" in the name sponsor our events.

However, when I was told this rule (especially because alcohol is allowed at some events, albeit under very strict guidlines), I thought the same thing.

I asked for the reason behind it and it was because while everyone may know you're an ABC, it's best not to broadcast it while doing activities that have the potential to reflect badly upon an organization and a life style we work hard to uphold.

I'm not sure if I 100% agree with it, because I do feel (in letter or not) that I always represent Alpha Ep. But, I follow the rule.

In addition, our chapter has a cute little saying called The 5 Ss, which are the only times our NMs are allowed to not wear their pledge pin: sleeping, showering, sports, s***-faced, and, well, something else that requires a lot of sweating.;)

For me, I think the difference would be the context of the situation. If I got a glass of wine with a meal, that's one thing. Going to a bar to get a beer with a friend regardless of whether I become intoxicated or not, not ok in letters IMO.

In my chapter, it's ok for alumnae to meet up for dinner and a drink and have letters on (A drink, not GET drunk)....undergrads are not allowed to drink in letters.
We're not allowed to smoke in our letters, either. If you're wearing an ASA shirt and want a cigarette, you should change shirts first. One org. on campus allows their members to smoke in letters, but they can't smoke and walk, because that increases the chances that you'll end up upsetting someone you walk past by blowing smoke on them. (I think that's their reasoning)

I can top that.

Our official etiquette manual says that we should go home with the date we came with.

My question is...do you have to go home with him? Or can he just drop you off at your place? :p

Smoking
 

We were also instructed as pledges that a lady (and of course all Gamma Phis are ladies) never smokes while walking. In fact, we were to be seated if smoking. No one in my pledge class smoked, so it was simply a quaint left-over from the 60s. It is mentioned in The Southern Belle Primer as a rule southern women have long followed - Princess Margaret apparently broke it on a trip to Dallas, and was DISCUSSED. :)

We weren't allowed to smoke in public, but at the back door of the AOII dorm, there was a bush that was known as the "Smoking Bush" because all the sisters who smoked would sit in the bush and smoke since they technically weren't in public.

A little historical perceptive
 

Is this official "no drinking in letters" thing some what recent for NPCs?

When I was an undergrad at Kentucky last century (late 1970s), one of the "top" fraternities had an All Greek Beer Blast. To get in, you were suppose to wear your letters. The reason being that only Greeks would be wearing letters. And because they were a "top" chapter, you bet every sorority was out in force, in their letters, with an ice cold beer in hand. Unless they were doing shots of bourbon! :cool:

For what it is worth, this was one of the best All Greek parties. It was normally held on a Friday (often before a home football game) and had live bands and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kegs. House Mothers had a reserved area where they were given priority treatment. The Dean of Students, Greek Life Advisors for NPC, NPHC and IFC, as well as chapter advisors etc. would all be in attendance. It was so popular that around my senior year, so many Greeks from other campuses would crash it that they started to require - in addition to letters - a current UK ID to get in.

Also "way back when", there were certain nights when a chapter would wear their letters out to the bars for what ever reason.

And this was not just restricted to UK. I experienced it at other Kentucky, SEC and Big XII campuses. Also at Indiana and Maryland while away attending football games. Frankly, there were lots of sorority women wearing their letters and tailgating (i.e. drinking).

I can see this more easily than a blanket ban. There is a difference between a bar on one hand and a nice dinner (or wedding reception) on the other hand.

FWIW - At our alumnae chapter's Founders' Day luncheon we could have wine. Everyone wore her badge, and we had a former International President in attendance. BUT we weren't in letters per se.

I think most NPC women would be shocked to learn that a good amount of NPCs don't actually have alcohol policies in their Inter/National policies. It seems to have become a pretty common CHAPTER rule, and most people don't know which are chapter rules and national rules. I was told as an undergrad that ASA had national "Drinking in letters" rules, but there are none. Even Dolly Purvis Lloyd (a National VP) conceded that fact at District Days D4 last year - although if it were up to her, there would be.

I know that on our website, in at least one place it says:

"No Alpha Sigma Tau insignia or associated symbols of the Sorority shall appear at any activity or function in which the abuse of alcohol is the outstandingly noticeable function or at an establishment that is primarily for drinking alcohol."

As for anything further, I'd have to search for it.

As has been said, if I'm having a glass of wine with dinner, that's one thing. If I'm at the bar, at a party, at a mixer, etc., then I'm not going to wear my letters.

Yeah, and that doesn't even touch Sidney Allen (former national Panhel prez) drinking in her pin.

This argument goes on and on and I think it's silly. If you're at a small school where everyone knows everyone or at least knows what group they are in, I think it's pointless to get all self righteous about not drinking in letters. It doesn't matter if you have letters on or not. Everyone is going to know that AlphaFrog the ASA and Brad Pitt the Sigma Chi were groping each other at the bar. :)

And as TSteven said...it used to be you SHOULD wear letters to get certain rights at parties, etc.

This has to do with risk management. It doesn't have to do with the "sanctity" of pieces of fabric on another piece of fabric. People just like to tell themselves that. And as I have said, the easier NPC pledging got, the more anal rules like this started to pop up.

Ditto all this for the smoking rules, I honestly hear those more from Southern chapters.