Rush at OU
 

Hi! I am new to this site and have found it to be very helpful, overwhelming, and frightening all at the same time...My daughter will be attending OU in the fall and will be going through "recruitment" there. I want her to be as prepared as possible. We have a file with possible recs etc. I have three questions...1) Is OU recruitment as brutal as some of the other Southern schools I have been reading about? 2).Will it hurt her to be from Texas at an Oklahoma school and not a legacy? 3). What qualities are most desirable in a PNM, ie, grades, looks, extra curriculars..in other words, what are most of the houses looking for. Thanks so much for any insight you can give us...

There are so many girls from Texas at OU that that should not be an issue at all. OU is competitive to get into certain chapters, but girls who give all chapters a chance tend to do well. Don't worry about legacy status for several reasons, but mostly because you can't do anything about it. She will need recs. As for what chapters are looking for, that is confidential, but just use common sense. Most people want to associate with people who are intelligent, well-rounded, attractive, and personable. If your daughter can communicate that she is all of those things, she should be fine.

Thanks for the quick response! I was hoping that the Texas thing wouldn't be a problem...I had read on a few other threads about other Southern schools that have chapters where "out of staters" wouldn't have a prayer. There are alot of students that go to OU from my daughter's high school which hopefully will help her.
She has great grades and EC's and is beautiful (of course I am her mother and very biased :o). She can be a bit shy around people that she doesn't know and I just hope she will be able to shine. I know that there are alot of girls that are like her (not used to having to "sell" them selves) and they somehow make it through. We will look forward to the invaluable information that this site can provide!

If you are in an area that has an panhellenic association, I would suggest that you contact them (shortly after the first of the year, those Texas Pan groups are highly organized) to let them know your daughter will be going through at OU. They can be of great help. In my experience, the Texas groups always send organized info to out of state schools and are good about following up, etc.
Often, those groups will sponsor an informative tea or meeting, and that would be a good thing to attend.

Good luck! My daughter pledged three years ago. Recruitment is often harder on the moms than the daughters! :)

The Texas thing will not be a problem. Have some chapter recs for the better houses at least. She'll be fine.

Yeah, it's a problem but similar to Arkansas...Texas can be considered "in-state" by girls...There are so many north Dallas kids at these Universities that likely she has tons of friends already in sororities at the University.

I also am more seriously questioning the adage that it is hard to get into sororities from out of state. We are seeing more and more out of state PNMs who are adequately prepared have no trouble getting into sororities in the south/SEC. Also, I think we are in a new era where more and more individuals are going to school out of state due to certain state schools becoming extremely competitive. I can speak to UT specifically. There are many young women "of a certain background" who due to the top 10% rule can no longer gain admission into UT, when they probably would have in past college generations. For a variety of reasons these ladies may not want to go to A&M or Tech or wherever, and maybe they don't want to go to a liberal arts school either. They want a school with a big football program & etc. So, they head out to other flagship state schools. Those young ladies will be well-prepared for recruitment whether they end up at OU, Arkansas, Bama, Ole Miss, wherever.

The question is though, whether it's actually gotten "easier" to get into sororities at southern schools from out of state, or if the college admissions world has just seen such a huge sea change that student bodies have changed drastically and sororities naturally changed with the winds. The chicken or the egg, if you will.

But yeah, I am beginning to question the out-of-state thing, just based on anecdotal evidence from GC.

And as others have said, I think it's more important to be well-prepared than to be in-state.

I have noticed similar trends, BG, but I the Texas-girls-at-OU thing is not a recent phenomenon. My younger sisters were both in a very competitive chapter at OU in the early 90s and I think about half (no exaggeration) of their chapter was from Texas.

I do think your theory plays out at OSU though. When I was there I don't know if I even knew anyone from Texas, and the new member listings are full of Texas girls now.

The last couple of years we've heard some "horror stories" back in TX about OU's rush. But when you delve into the details it's usually girls getting set on a handful of houses and dropping out when things don't go their way. Tell your daughter to give all the houses a fair shake and she should be fine. Also, in my opinion, legacies don't help much. Recs are way more important. Given that your from TX, your daughter is basically in-state at OU. So tell her to relax, smile and have fun because in the end that's what it's all about. :):)

Does she have friends from high school in any of the chapters at OU?
That's the bottom line.:)

A high school friend of my daughters' rushed at OU in 06. We are not from Texas or OK, we are from the southeast. I don't know if she was a legacy or had recs, but she had a very successful rush and was very happy with her house. All this to say, it is possible and good luck!

Thanks so much to all of you for your responses..this mom is feeling better. Unfortunatley the above poster has hit the nail onthe head...My daughter is in the top quarter of her very competitive high school with a 3.8 unwaited GPA and will not be able to get in to UT. Her father and I are both alums there.
It was a different world before the "top 10%" rule.. OU has become a very viable option for those kids that can't get into UT or A&M, especially those that are from the DFW area because of the close proximity to home. I just wish that we could get "in state" tuition since Texans are practically "in state":o.
I do agree that being prepared is key and that's why this site is so valuable. Please keep your advice and thoughts coming...:)

I'm not going to lie, that GPA is going to work against her. While that GPA is over the minimum that most houses have set, most pledge classes at OU are 50-85% 4.0 unweighted GPAs from high school.

WOW! That's disheartening! I know that there are some girls from her HS that are in top houses that were ranked lower than my D, thus had to have a lower GPA. Do they look at weighted GPA at all? Her weighted GPA is a 4.7.

I really couldn't say, since (1) I have no clue what goes on in other houses and (2) that discussion is usually membership selection. Just remember that most universities, including OU, don't use weighted GPAs, so I would guess that most houses wouldn't look at them. (And shouldn't, but that is another discussion.)

I will say that she should have excellent recs, tons of extracurriculars, and involvement in community (church/temple, volunteering, girl scouts, et cetera) to offset the lower GPA.

There are exceptions to every rule. I know a young lady from my son's high school who did NOT have a 4.0 unweighted GPA and received a bid from her first choice, and from what I gather from this board & other Greek sites one of the top houses, at OU. Our suburban high school is considered one of the most competitive high schools in the Houston area where a 4.0 doesn't even make it in the top 25%. She is a beautiful young lady who was a member of the Homecoming Court and involved in many extracurricular activities, though, so I assume that made up for the lower GPA.

I agree that school reputation can influence a chapter's opinion about gpa. If the school is known to be a competitive one, actives will take that into consideration.

I am interested in hearing more on GPA minimums at OU. Is a 3.8 really considered low for chapters there? What do the more competitive chapters consider an actual grade risk?

What about ACT or SAT scores? Are those factored in? And, someone explain the weighted score criteria. Does OU not consider weighted classes - AP,etc?

Looking forward to learning more...

Thanks UHDEEGEE! You are describing my daughter almost to a "T". She is very involved at her school and outside of school which should help. I just shudder to think that a 3.8 is considered a lower GPA!! We also live in a highly competitive school district where my daughter is BARELY in the top quarter with a 3.8 (she got a B in her freshmen year and another B in an AP class, thus the 3.8 GPA..)
I find it shocking that this is considered a less than great GPA!! This will be very discouraging to my daughter, as it is to me.:(:(

These are great questions! I would also like to know that answers!!

OU does not consider weighted GPAs, since not all schools weigh GPAs, nor do all schools that do so use the same scale or criteria.

As to what chapters consider, again, that is membership selection.

Though I can say that my pledge class was mostly 4.00 GPAs in high school. There were a few (5) that were above a 3.75 and had excellent extra-curriculars.

As to what I would consider a grade risk (personally, not my chapter) is anything below a 3.85. If you can't get a 4.0 in a normal high school, how are you going to get one in college where more is expected of you and you have more outside activities (especially when you are pledging a house.)

How can you not get a 4.0 in high school? Hmmm, let me count the ways.
You attend an exemplary (and extremely competitive) high school, your senior class has 760 students with the top 10% ALL having a 4.5, over half of the top 10% are National Merit Semi-Finalists, your AP classes all use college text books, your high school peers are the highly intelligent children of rocket scientists (literally), doctors, entrepreneurs, CEO's, CFO's, etc. and your school administration KNOWS it so the curriculum is designed to be ABOVE what the state's minimum requirements are, a weighted GPA of 3.5 at your high school is still considered better than an unweighted 4.0 at just about every other high school in your city because of the rigorous curriculum.

I understand the value of a high GPA because I had that 4.0, but I see how much harder my son's school is than the one I attended 30 years ago. He does not have an unweighted 4.0, but if I dropped him in most ANY other school in the Houston area, he'd have that GPA because he takes the most advanced courses that his school offers. He opted to actually learn something in school as opposed to taking the "easy A" road.

Personally, I think this stupid Top 10% law in Texas is going to be the death knell of our higher education system. When a kid with a 3.5 GPA and a 900 SAT gets into UT over a kid with a 4.0 and an 1840 SAT simply because they are in the top 10% of their class, then I think there is a serious problem. When you don't look at the level of difficulty of classes that a student takes in high school, you cannot compare apples to apples.

I would pretty much guarantee that a student graduating with a 3.85 out of my son's high school (and those like it) is going to be quite successful at their college of choice.

THANK YOU.

For the sake of those out of the Texas loop, could you explain the reasoning behind the 10% rule?

Thanks!

Very, very well said!!!! You again have hit the nail on the head!! I would love to hear from others that have gone through recruitment at OU to see if they would agree that a 3.8 un-weighted GPA is just too low...

I didn't say it was too low, and if, indeed your daughter is very involved in the community, volunteering, and in extracurriculars, she probably will get a bid. I just wanted to point out that it is lower than most of the girls going through rush, so she will need the other areas to be higher, especially recs. There are usually anywhere between 700 and 1000 going through rush, and over half of them will be 4.0s.

Not being from Texas, and having gone through the collegiate application process nearly 10 years ago, I am unfamiliar with the 10% rule. Can someone explain that to me? Does it exist in other states besides Texas? Why would it make it more difficult for your daughter to get into a state school? I can't imagine a 3.8 GPA being considered low...

Thanks

OK, I missed UHDEEGEE's post... so I gather I get the 10% rule.

I used to work at the admissions office at my private college and I know they looked at the difficulty of the school where the kids went. They had a list, and I'm pretty sure they took kids from those HS's annually (or something to that extent). Obviously, they didn't know ALL of the HS's in the US, as my HS was not on the list. But I know they looked. Not sure if that makes the Moms out there feel better or not.

I think the admissions game is pretty nuts. I've done it 3 (now 4) times: college, Med School x 2 and now residency. Residency seems to make the most sense, as I can handle being judged on weather or not I've published... but the rest of the processes are kind of a toss-up. One of our admission deans joked with me the other day "next year we are going to use handwriting analysis instead of the regular method of picking the next class", proving that even people who are involved in the process see that it can be arbitrary.

There is a thread elsewhere on GC that discusses minimum GPA's and the fact that it is actually not always private membership selection info. They are often posted on websites and made public. (maybe someone who is better at the search function than I am can find it?)So, by asking around, you may be able to find out that information.

Also, I would like to point out there is an "absolute, we have to get special permission to pledge below this" minimum gpa and there is the general acceptable gpa that chapters will take but are not necessarily wowed by.

Without anyone else to comment from OU - Irishpipes, maybe? - who can speak to this particular recruitment, and if this 3.8 GPA carries the weight Kstar says it does, then I suggest you focus on quality recs, quality pics, fine tuned resume, network, network, network. You never mentioned if you live near an active panhellenic alum association, but I again, want to stress that.

Okay, and one more thing, :) search for threads on recs - asking for them, do's and don'ts,etc. I think that would be another good resource.

The top 10% rule was passed in the aftermath of the Hopwood v. Texas in 1996. That court case struck down UT's affirmative action policy when 4 white plaintiffs who had been rejected from the UT law school won a court case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopwood_v._Texas

The Michigan court case decided by the Supreme Court now probably overrides Hopwood v. Texas. But back in 1996, both the legislature wanted to do something to preserve some kind of affirmative action. The concern was that students from weaker high schools or remote areas of Texas (well, really any of areas of Texas outside the most prestigious high schools in the urban centers of Dallas, Austin, Houston, San Antonio) would face an uphill battle getting into UT. So the top 10% rule was instituted. It states that any student who graduates in the top 10% of their HS class will automatically receive admission to any Texas state school. In practice, most of those students end up going to UT.

UT doesn't like the top 10% rule much because they A) believe they could achieve more geographical/racial/ethnic diversity in admissions without it (and especially in the aftermath of the Michigan case) and B) are now forced to "automatically" admit up to 80% of their freshmen class. Since they save some spots for out of state and international students, you can see that it is extremely, extremely difficult for them to keep the size of the freshmen class down and admit anyone from a Texas high school who is not in the top 10%. The school next most affected by the rule, A&M, I believe admits 40-50% of their class based on the top 10% rule, so they are not nearly as affected as UT at this point (although the numbers are climbing for all the Texas schools).

I believe there is currently a lawsuit from a Houston student challenging the top 10% rule as reverse discrimination against students from predominantly white, urban and suburban prestigious high schools. That student failed to make the top 10% at her school because she took orchestra for four years, which is not a weighted course.

That said, as an instructor at UT, I do not believe the top 10% rule really means the student body at UT is unqualified or anything of that sort. In fact, some of the students from prestigious high schools have been low performers in my classes because they get to UT and go Greek and start drinking and partying too much and go crazy, whereas the students from small or rural or "weak" high schools are there to really better themselves and move up in the world. Just my opinion.

Basically, at this point, no one likes the top 10% rule except students from smaller high schools and the legislature. It does have the advantage of being some kind of "objective" standard that based on the way high schools are distributed across the state, will guarantee some kind of racial/ethnic/geographic diversity at the school. Personally I think it would make sense to alter the rule so that you were required to be admitted to A Texas state university rather than ANY Texas state university. Don't know if that would fly though. I think it will be interesting to see how the lawsuit from the Houston student goes and if the top 10% rule is struck down.

I also feel that if the top 10% rule does get struck down or altered by the legislature, UT will start dramatically reducing the size of its freshmen classes. The university would like to have more students housed on campus and more money to spread around per student, and more money to spend on graduate students and research programs. So if the top 10% rule goes, there are still going to be struggles for students from prestigious high schools, because there will be fewer students admitted overall.

I also have to say I'm not super-sympathetic to students from prestigious high schools, as I believe that the students who just miss getting into UT can usually A) easily achieve admission to any number of other good universities inside or outside of Texas, some of them possibly even more prestigious than UT and B) can easily afford tuition at private universities (not to mention A&M and Tech - it's not like those two schools are bad schools or something, and actually those schools, particularly Tech, may benefit from the top 10% rule by having more students check them out). I do understand that for many of those students, going to UT is a family tradition or whatever. But... I dunno.

Sorry, I would have responded to the questions re: the Texas Top 10% law but we left for a family outing. Breathesgelatin answered much better than I could have, though.

BG, you are correct in that my son can get into out of state universities that are ranked higher nationally than both UT & A&M and also that we have been blessed to be able to afford tuition at a private university. But, when you are a native Texan (btw, UT is NOT our family tradition) who wants to attend one of the 2 state flagship universities and are basically penalized for attending a "prestigious" high school, than there is something wrong with the system. Perhaps the mandatory auto-admits should be the top 3% instead of 10%? Or cap the percentage of freshmen admitted under the current top 10%? I simply feel that this law will hurt our state in the long run by forcing some of our best & brightest young men & women to look outside of Texas for college....and in turn accept jobs outside of Texas as well.

OU is one of the universities that my son will be applying to next year, which is why the OP's thread caught my eye; I didn't mean to highjack. Ladybugmom, I wish your daughter the best of luck at OU recruitment!

Wow, great explanation, breathesgelatin. As a person who has several friends in Texas with college-age kids (or soon to be so) this really does shed some light on the situation. I knew of the rule, but not why it was imposed.

I am not sure I understand your proposal regarding admissons. Did you mean that the top 10% should be automatically admitted to any university in Texas instead of just UT?

Thanks again for explaining that so well!

Yes, I do agree that it's rather counterintuitive. That's part of the problem with instilling absolutely hardline "objective" standards, is that they're never really objective and someone is going to get screwed/overlooked. For example if they based it on a minimum SAT or something, there would still be issues.

There was a house bill (HB 78 (80R)) in 2007 which proposed capping the number of students admitted under the top 10% rule to 40% of admitted students. UT was strongly in favor of the proposal. It did not pass - it stalled in committee. The top 10% rule is rather popular with the legislature. They can point to an "objective standard," they can say we're not using affirmative action but still guaranteeing diversity, and for the legislators from the non-prestigious school districts it's obviously more popular with their constituents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_House_Bill_588

That link gives more info on some of the proposals. Doing a top 7% rule has also been proposed. But with population growth, wouldn't that eventually become a problem too?

Yes, that's what I meant. Well, only including state schools. The legislature obviously has no control over what TCU, SMU, or Rice do, for example. But it does make inherent sense to me that someone who graduates in the top 10% of their class ought to be admitted to some state university in Texas. But why must we guarantee it's one of the 2-3 flagship schools? Frankly, most of the burden and flak surrounding the top 10% rule falls on UT and to a lesser degree A&M. You know?

Sorry for derailing the thread.

Yes, it is a mandatory, auto-admit for any public university in Texas. UT has been the most affected. Our UT admissions counselor told us that 83% of the current freshman class is from the Top 10% law.

Yes, and when you furthermore consider that in 2007-2008 the student body was 10% out of state and 9.1% international students, it puts that 83% and just how few other spaces are left into perspective even more.

Now, I think those numbers (10% and 9.1%) include graduate students, most of whom are probably out of state, but you still get the idea.

PDF with some of the breakdowns for interested parties:

http://www.utexas.edu/academic/oir/s...08students.pdf

So, are out of state students granted admission after the school sees how many of the 10% choose to attend? Does anyone instate from below the 10% get into UT? Is it almost impossible for an out of state student to get in?
I ask because I have a friend in Missouri whose father is a UT alum, who is a diehard Longhorn fan and has applied to UT for next fall. She will be number 2 or 3 in her class but I don't know what that means for out of state admission possibilities. I seriously hope she has a plan b and plan c in place but know she is dying to be a longhorn like dad.

I don't honestly know! I know 10% isn't actually the percentage of out of staters admitted, but the percentage of out of staters in the student body... if that makes a difference.

I would assume, though, based on those stats, that UT is trying to reserve around 10% of spaces (maybe a little less, because again, that 10% I believe includes grad students, most of whom will be from out of state) for out of state students.

I would guess it's about as difficult, possibly a LITTLE less, just a little, to get into UT from out of state as it is at schools for which it is notoriously difficult to get into out of state (UVA, UNC, etc.). At that point, even if you're an awesome student, it's going to be somewhat of a crapshoot.

Do you see this recurrent theme in the college admissions process? I feel like it is.

^^^I see it all the time in our area of the country. It really is the luck of the draw. Kids don't get into their matches and sometimes even supposed safeties reject them. UVA OOS legacies do get a big boost however as they are considered in the instate pile. There is no boost for legacies who actually are instate.

I just wanted to put my 2 cents in here because i haven't seen positive feed on this topic yet. The top ten percent law (TTPL) is great but flawed. Personally, I went to a rural school nearby a city with some of the most competitive schools in the state. Our school could never compete with those city schools in a million years. We didn't have the money which meant we couldn't get the types of teachers like the competitive schools could and the teacher turn over rate is high.
While I find the law fair, I feel it’s flawed. I believe that schools should have caps of at least 50 percent of top ten percent students automatically admitted. First come, first serve because not every TTP student will want to go to the flagship schools. For example, of the 13 top ten students in my school, 6 went to UT and A&M. The rest went to other schools like UNT, UTSA, RICE, TCU, and ETBU. Because of this I feel with the caps, those who truly want to go to flagships will have to be responsible about it, apply in a timely manner and with a 50 percent cap it would free up an extra 30 percent (TTP admission is over 80 percent of the freshman class now) of the freshman classes for schools like UT which could mean students not from the top ten percent from those traditional feeder schools and international and out of state students being admitted.

Top ten percent students still are guaranteed a space at A Texas public school which is what the law states just not their top choice. I think the law should stay because it gives equal footing for those incapable of attending those highly competitive schools and by adding a cap it will better diversify the classes by allowing more out of state and international students and lower ranked Texas students from those traditional feeder schools.

Either way some one will always be angry or feel shafted. I think a happier medium would be a cap or just return to allowing affirmative action but then again that’s only my opinion and I am also biased. I think the house report in 2005 sums up a lot of the issues for both sides. Even though its a bit outdated, the ideas are still the same. http://www.hro.house.state.tx.us/focus/topten79-7.pdf

I think an issue not brought up enough is what would happen if the top ten percent law is rescinded. How accountable will the Texas institutions be to Texans? Then again most don't think of that. There is a small blurb in the house report about it though.

UT and A&M do take into account where you went to highschool and the rigor of the curriculum. In my son's class, there were a number of kids in the top 1/4 who got into UT (2007) with great test scores and extracurriculars. Many had to do the summer program, but they happily did to go to UT.

Many kids in the top 1/3 or so get into A&M, but if you are in the top 1/2, it is almost assured that you can get into the A&M/Blinn Team, and many choose to do that.

As for OU and pledging. My son has 8 friends who are either tri delts or chi-o's at OU (for whatever reason they all pledged the same houses) and none of them were 4.0 (un-weighted) students. They are all great girls with great attributes, and had no problems with recruitment.

At UT there are plenty of girls who are pledging with less than 4.0's unweighted.

A 4.0 unweighted would mean you never got a B, and while there are alot of valedictorians at UT, the student body is not made up with 100% of them, and I doubt OU's student body is either.

edited to add: My son's roommate last year was from Indiana, and he got into UT. He was a valedictorian, NMF though, but I don't think all OOS kids are.

Here is how UT does admissions for NON-top 10% kids (for those who might be interested - from the UT website)