Obama/McCain and space exploration
 

Does anyone know what Barack Obama or John McCain's spending plan will be for the space program? I'm just wondering, because I was just thinking about the speech former President Bush gave on space exploration. It was sometime in the late 80s. I think I was about 5 or 6, but I remember his speech was in regards to committing the nation to a sustained program of human exploration of the solar system and permanent settlement of space. I remember him speaking about (as I can remember) the need for more than a 20 year plan, of a long range continuing committment to space exploration. I do know it was because of him that the Space Exploration Initiative was created. I actually thought it was an excellent start, but it was all downhill from there.

I don't know why, but for some odd reason, all the talk about going to Mars disappeared. Exploring Mars was supposed to take place in 2000, then I heard 2008, now I'm hearing 2012. I'm just wondering if Obama or McCain will follow through with it, or if anything was mentioned about it. I'm not sure of the cost, but I'll bet it would be far less than the money that's being wasted in Iraq.

I know I won't be here to see it, but I definitely think Mars is where the action will be in the next century.

:eek: o.k. I like Obama a lot and I totally agree with most of the things he's said, but to cut back NASA's funding totally does not make any sense at all! If he makes it in office, (and I still want him to) he's going to have to change this. Seriously. I don't even think it would cost that much. I mean, the United States has on hand all the technologies required for undertaking within a decade an aggressive, continuing program of human Mars exploration. I think we actually can reach Mars with relatively small spacecraft launched directly to Mars by boosters embodying the same technology that carried astronauts to the Moon eons ago. I don't see why he would want to cut funding. It's not like we're just beginning. I think we could be ready to go within the next 5-10 years, without spending a ton of money.

Page 10 of Obama's Science and Technology plan talks about NASA. It sounds to me like he considers it important.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issue...eetScience.pdf

There are the code words for cut funding for ya.

Yeah.....I kind of don't care about space exploration.

I value space exploration and it has brought us a lot of technological advances that became mainstream. There's also a lot of research happening out there. However, given the crises we're in right now, I don't see it as an "essential" as I do other programs.

Yeah, I think it's way down on the list.

From the Tampa Tribune:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/aug...tells-space-c/

Obama has consistently expressed support for education, particularly in the areas of math and science. If we weren't in such a financial pickle, I have a feeling he'd pump plenty of funding into NASA.

We can barely afford gas to get cross town (at least now it's managable) so I think we are a bit too broke to be thinking about going to another planet so we can f*ck that one up too.

NASA has to get rid of the old shuttle fleet and find reasosn why they keep going up there (fouling the weather while they are at it) so it will be worth something.

We finally agree on something. I like the space program and think it is exciting, but right now most of our manned missions seem to be going into space for the sake of flying up there. I haven't heard any convincing evidence of what the manned space program has accomplished in recent years (since they repaired Hubble). The last big crossover into mainstream consumer technology was things created during the development of the shuttle. That's been a pretty good while.

It's well known in the aerospace community that the current space shuttle is getting ready to be retired. A new space shuttle is being designed. Cheerfulgreek, as you can imagine, this will NOT be cheap. Also, in case you missed it, NASA has been doing research on Mars, just not with people on the ground there. It's even been in the news recently. We have learned a lot from the space program, but in these times when we can't afford to run our country on this planet, I think cutting space trips is a wise decision.

Yes, this is correct. I was watching a documentary this past weekend on the space program, called "Space Shuttle Disaster." Like Peppy said, the shuttles are being retired. After the Columbia disaster, NASA (well the Columbia disaster advisory board) re-evaluated why they were taking people up in space. So they are coming out with new "shuttles" that are going to be designed like the early Apollo rockets were. They will have one "shuttle" designed to carry cargo, like things they need to repair the international space station with, and one to carry humans.

The whole idea of redesigning these rockets was to prevent human death like what happened with Columbia or with Challenger.

NASA's funding has been cut before, with the Nixon administration and it wasn't truly until George W. Bush (our current president) that NASA gained more funding for human space exploration.

I think that we should drastically reduce space exploration until our economy begins to bounce back, there are simply more important things right now then spending billions to fly to a frozen rock.

Apparently a rumor that Obama would kill the space program (so -hint hint - vote for McCain - hint hint) has been circulating through NASA. A fraternity brother of mine who works at the Johnson Space Center in Houston was absolutely frantic about it. Unfortunately, he neglected to check it out for himself. I checked it out online in a few seconds and found that Obama is very much in favor of continuing the space program. In fact, John Glenn supports Obama and his program.

I don't know where McCain stands on the issue, the relevance of which is becoming less and less every day.

Cheerfulgreek, I was amused by your comment about astronauts landing on the moon eons ago, since I watched (live and in person) the last two Apollo missions (Apollo 16 and Apollo 17) launch from KSC. In a way, it does seem like eons ago. I was initiated two days after Apollo 16's return to earth. Apollo 17 was a night launch in December, just before Christmas Break.

Jono

lol Yeah, I agree here. I would hope that wouldn't happen to Mars, but yeah, I'm sure Mars would get messed up too.

o.k. I understand that it's not exactly cheap. It would probably cost about 20 to 30 billion dollars which is a lot, but it's roughly in the same range as a single military procurement for a new weapons system. As I can remember I think the United States gave Mexico a similar amount some time in 1995. I think if it's spread over 20 years, with the 1st ten years developing hardware and the next 10 years flying missions, I'm thinking it would represent about 8% and 12% of the existing NASA budget. I mean, I seriously think for the sake of opening a new world to human civilization, it's a sum that this country can easily afford. Of course after we get out of the financial situation that our moron president has gotten us into.

Yep, we've been to Mars before. In 1976 Viking 1 landed on Mars. We've actually been doing research on Mars since the 50s, but without landing someone there, we're missing a lot. Yep, you're right about the shuttle, but we wouldn't need it to go to Mars anyway. Exploring Mars requires no miraculous new technologies, no orbiting spaceports, no anti-matter propulsion systems or gigantic interplanetary crusiers. Seriously, why can't we travel there the same way we got to the moon, just with the technology we have now? Even the temperature there can support life. I mean, I know it can drop down to -130 degrees there, but we could develop equipment to protect us from that. During the day though, it gets to the mid 60s. I just think it's totally realistic. We planned to go in 2000, so I know we have the technology. We've just been throwing away money to a country that doesn't even want us there. Thanks a lot Bush.

I really hope Obama doesn't cut spending on the space program. I think it's very important to give NASA the funding that's needed for space exploration. The hell with Iraq.

I missed this one. It's not just a frozen rock, PhiGam.:rolleyes: Mars has a lot of great scenery. It actually has mountains three times as tall as Mount Everest, canyons three times as deep and five times as long as the Grand Canyon. It also has a ton of dry riverbeds. You also need to look at the fact that its unexplored surface may hold unimagined resources for future humanity, as well as answers to some of the deepest philosophical questions that thinking women and men have pondered on for eons. I honestly think Mars may someday provide a home for a dynamic new branch of human civilization. I also think with future human settlement and growth there, it will provide an engine of progress for all of humanity for generations to come. But all that Mars holds will remain beyond reach unless and until women and men land there. You would be surprised, temperatures on Mars can get pretty warm. Mars also has water frozen into its soil, as well as large quantities of carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen, all in forms readily accessible to those inventive enough to use them. Also, these four elements are not only the basis of food and water, but of plastics, wood, paper, clothing, etc etc. You can also get rocket fuel out of those same elements too. That doesn't sound like a frozen rock to me.

it all sounds nice but we are still a long ways off from establishing any kind of settlement there and besides with all the squabbling that humans do HERE or Earth we all can't come together and finance a trip together. You think we would ahve done that by now..I mean hey...we got a hooptie of a space station in orbit so if we ALL pooled our resources, we ALL could go to Mars. However, you know behind the scenes everyone is fighting to be the first country there.

I think we could go now. We have the technology, so why not?

Well, I really don't think anyone is fighting to see who goes first anymore. When the Cold War died, the space race died with it. If the Cold War was still going on, I'll betcha we would have landed someone on Mars 8 years ago. The Soviet space program attempted two launches in 1988 to explore Mars and it's moon Phobos that met with disappointment, continuing a streak of bad luck that pretty much has plagued every Soviet or Russian Mars mission. So because of that also, I don't think we've really been that pressed to go. It's funny how after the launch of Sputnik, we went to the moon soon after. I guess our government now sees it as since we have no one to compete against, why go?

Because we don't have the technology. Not anywhere close. The moon is 240,000 miles away. If we wanted to go back to the moon, we probably could. Mars is 50,000,000 miles away. It's 208 times farther away than is the moon. The shortest time period possible to get from the earth to mars is 9 months, and that is if you time it exactly right at an opportunity that comes every 1.6 years. Here's a quote from a kids astronomy page about the difficulty of a mission to Mars.

It's obviously a little outdated too since it's still saying we are making less than 10 shuttle launches a year. Yeah, much less now.

So spending billions of dollars is warranted because:
1. There are tall mountains and dry riverbeds
2. There may be resources there (although there is no evidence showing this)
3. They have large quantities of the most commonly occuring elements on earth.

Sorry, I'm not drinking your kool aid on this one. Mars exploration is fine- when our economy isn't in the crapper. The money that would be needed for a Mars mission would be better invested in education or a second stimulus package. Going to Mars itself probably won't do much for us- simply because such a mission is very hard to pull off due to the orbit of Mars v. Earth.

NASA is a great program simply because of the technological advances that are a byproduct of space exploration IMO. I think that we should be using NASA scientists (some of the brightest minds in the world) to improve upon renewable energy technologies. Last time I visited Kennedy Space Center they did have a rather large exhibit about renewable energy.

:rolleyes:

Damn girl, you love you some planets. LOL. Damn, if it takes 9 months to get there, you would have to consider a joker needing to use the crapper. Hell, a joker's gotta eat, boo boo, drink and piss. And with no gravity? :eek:

It would be hard as hell to keep track of time on another planet, or while travelling there too.

cheers, how about you and two other jokers go to Mars and you lead the mission. $20 you jokers wouldn't come back.:D

Hate to think about how many astronaut diapers they'd need for 9 months.

When the Cold War ended, the "space race" became a cooperative effort for the International Space Station, which doesn't get nearly enough press, I think. Read up on everything that's happening there! It's incredible what we're accomplishing TOGETHER. Two heads are better than one. Two super power resources are better than one also.

A watch would do the trick

Psssst...a little 5th grade astronomy lesson...day light hrs on other planets can be measured differently as sunrise and sunset varies...a watch is not always a viable option especially since most other planets do not have a standard 24hr period like......Earth?

Avg Mars day 24.66 hrs

Avg Lunar Day 24.56 hrs

Avg Venus Day - 243 EARTH days (see why a watch would be impractical?)

BTW....has anyone been paying attention to the Asian space race lately?

I disagree. I also thought the kiddy astronomy post you posted was cute.:D I'll respond to that too. I guess.:rolleyes:

9 months? Yeah, maybe if you travel at an Apollo era velocity. I think we do have the technology, and we would be moving at a much greater speed than that. Also, I agree, Mars is indeed far away, much farther than the Moon. But what you have to look at is the fact that at its closest approach, when it stands directly on the opposite side of the Earth from the Sun, it actually never gets nearer than 38 million miles, that's about 55 million kilometers. At it's farthest, when it stands behind the Sun as seen from the Earth, it lies about 400 million kilometers distant. As far as I know of, there actually isn't any propulsion system, that can push directly away from the Sun and perform the transit between Earth and Mars in a straight line when the two are in oppostion. This is because a spacecraft leaving Earth posseses the velocity of the Earth, some 30 kilometers per second and unless massive amounts of propellant are expended to alter the course, the spacecraft will continue to circle the Sun in the same direction as the Earth. I think you're looking at the distance between the two planets alone. That's not the way to look at the picture. I think the best time to travel from Earth to Mars should occur when the two planets are in conjunction with each other. This goes back to what I was saying ealier. Opposition means when Mars is standing directly on the opposite side of Earth from the Sun. At conjunction, Mars stands behind the Sun as seen from Earth. So anyway, at their "maximum" distance from each other on opposite sides of the sun, is the best way. It's the easiest way to go, because if you take this path, you can actually travel along an ellipse which is tangent to the Earth's orbit at one end, and tangent to Mars' orbit on the other, thus minimizing the course change. You can disagree if you want, but we can agree to disagree, because neither one of us are astrophysicists. If you disagree with me, that's fine, but if you deviate from such a flight plan, the harder your propusion job, and the costlier the mission.

In repsonse to your comparrison with the the Moon's distance relative to Mars, Apollo astronauts traveled between the Earth and Moon with an average speed of about 1.5 kilometers per second, and this speed limit was set not by the limits of the propulsion technology of the time. Actually, the 3rd stage of the Saturn V could have rocketed the Apollo spacecraft toward the Moon at double or even triple this velocity, by the nature of the mission geometry, and I think this is what you're not seeing. The Apollo astronauts launched off at the Moon at about 4 kilometers per second and reached it in a single day. What you also have to look at is with that speed headed towards the Moon they wouldn't have been able to stop. Because of weak Lunar gravity, a spacecraft's propulsion system has to do nearly all the work required to capture a trans lunar spacecraft into lunar orbit.

Mars on the other hand, has substantial gravity and an atmosphere, both of which can assist in facilitating a deceleration maneuver. So a spacecraft can reach Mars with a much greater approach velocity and still manage to capture itself into orbit. More importantly, a spacecraft leaving Earth with a departure velocity of I'm thinking about 3-5 kilometers per second does not fly across the solar system with a mere 3 km/s speed.:rolleyes: Rather, in leaving the Earth, the spacecraft is launching off a very fast moving platform, and since it's moving in the same direction, it picks up (based on physics) an extra 30 km/s of velocity from the Earth as it goes around the Sun. You have to also look at the fact that the spacecraft would be moving across space with an initial velocity NOT of 3 km/s, but 33 km/s. That's more than 20 times the speed of an Apollo command module. Also you can't use this moving platform effect to help you reach the Moon, because the Moon is moving about the Sun in company with the Earth. As it leaves the Sun's gravity to move outward from the orbit of Earth to that of Mars, it actually would trade some of the kinetic energy associated with this velocity into potential energy, and so slows down a bit, but it's still moving very fast. I could be wrong, but I think I'm right or pretty close, because we had this same discussion in my P&A club and some agreed with me, some didn't. The members who disagreed with me were not looking at the fact that Mars will be cruising along its orbit, with a velocity of about 25 km/s in roughly the same direction of the spacecraft. I told them just like I'm telling you, that when the spacecraft reaches Mars' orbit, its velocity relative to Mars will be only 3 km/s, since it's moving at about 21 km/s. At 3 km/s, that's slow enough to allow orbit capture. What you're not understanding, is by the time the spacecraft reaches Mars, its traveled 1000 times farther than the Apollo astronauts, but on average 20 times faster. So, if you do the math, 1000 times farther divided by 20 times faster gives us a travel time that is a factor of 50 greater than the three day transits for the Apollo astronauts, so I'm thinking about 150 days. That's about 5 months from Earth to Mars. Of course this is a rough estimate of the travel time for a one way transit to Mars using using Apollo era or present day technology for propulsion. I don't think it's a bad estimate either, because we (my P&A members) got into this discussion based on a Discovery Channel documentary on Mars, and astronomers approximated about 6 months one way travel time. 9 months would be pretty close if we were taveling using technology from the Apollo era. But again, I have no problem agreeing to disagree with you.

You're not drinking my kool-aid? lol o.k.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

There's plenty of evidence in regards to Mars' resources. Like I was saying earlier, the resources it has can be used just like we found a way to use Earth's resources. We just need to be inventive enough to do so.

And I agree. Our economy is not doing very well, but I already talked about that. Once we're on our feet, I think this should be a priority. I said I hope whoever makes it in office, does not cut NASA spending.

And it's comments like this one that make you look as though you haven't a clue. There are mathematical equations that determine how to tell time on another planet. You just wouldn't use a watch.:rolleyes:

lol lol :D

Thanks Daemon.:)

Yes, it's worth spending the billions of dollars needed to go. Do you even know what a dry river bed could mean? This is proof that Mars once had a warm, wet climate, suitable for the origin of life. I've already said that it can get up to the mid 60s there. Life could have been possible in Mars' early years, because in its youth the planet's carbon dioxide atmosphere was much thicker, endowing it with a very strong greenhouse effect. And so what if there isn't any present day life. What about fossils? Wherever life has died out, it will leave fossils. We need people there to look.

Just like you have to wait for Earth and Mars to be in the proper postion before you head to Mars, you also have to make sure that they are in the proper position before you head home. That means you will have to spend 3-4 months at Mars before you can begin your return trip. All in all, your trip to Mars would take about 21 months: 9 months to get there, 3 months there, and 9 months to get back. With our current rocket technology, there is no way around this. The long duration of the trip has several implications.
First, you have to bring enough food, water, clothes, and medical supplies for the crew in addition to all the scientific instruments you will want to take. You also have to bring all that fuel! In addition, if you are in space for nine months, you will need a lot of shielding to protect you from the radiation of the Sun. Water, and cement make good shielding but they are very heavy. All together, it is estimated that for a crew of six, you would need to have 3 million pounds of supplies! The Shuttle can lift about 50,000 pounds into space, so it would take 60 shuttle launches to get all your supplies into space. In the history of the Shuttle, there have only been about 90 launches, and there are less than ten launches per year... So with the shuttle, it would take six years just to get the supplies into space. For this reason, you would probably need to develop a launch system that could lift more than 50,000 pounds into space. Even with a better launch vehicle, it is unlikely that you could launch the Mars mission all at once. You will have to launch it in several pieces and assemble them in orbit.

This kiddy cut and paste was so cute.:p Actually, if we do the research we could use the resources on Mars cutting cost on some of the supplies.

Why do I feel like an underpaid worker at a zoo?

"I made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs". - Han Solo

Actually, the human body has become accustomed, through centuries of acclimation, to a 24-hour clock. While there are also other related issues (such as the effects of sunlight on production of serotonin, for example), there's literally no good reason to keep time in "Mars time" for a basic exploration. It's likely more useful to keep a 24-hour schedule to prevent a sort of hyper-jet lag (especially considering how much the body would wither with 9 months of zero gravity) - a watch would be very useful, much more so than calibrating time to an astronomical idea of a "Mars day."

I was thinking the same thing, the only thing a "Mars day" would tell you is when it was daylight or darkness. You can just look around to figure that one out. Staying on 24 hour time seems much more useful to me.

And I don't disagree that it's possible to at some point go, but we can't do it now. Even if you could theoretically get to Mars, a capsule can't carry enough food for a trip of over a year (5 months there, 5 months back, however many months there to wait for the planets to get aligned correctly for the return trip. Let alone anything else you would need. Nasa's goal is to have the new capsule-based orbiter (looks like a bigger Apollo capsule) ready by 2012 or 2013, able to return to the Moon by 2020, and think the capsule would be suitable for Mars travel at some undefined point in the future after that if we can figure out other details. It isn't something we can do now though. Sure we have the technology to blast some shit to Mars, clearly, we've been doing it for a good while. We don't have the technology to keep people alive on that trip though.

can't carry enough food? why not?

You forget we have a space station orbiting overhead that's doing just that...testing out how long we can last up there...remember?

You are getting a few things confused...the new Ares craft is designed for lunar travel not to Mars...when we get ready to go to Mars there are plans on using a larger type craft to do the job...now come on...you won't send a speedboat to do the job of a cruise ship now will you?

Think....

FTW!! lmfao sooo true. That's why you shouldn't even bother responding.

Holy crap, it took me forever, but I *just* got this. LOLOLOLOL. :p

No... Ares isn't designed to go anywhere. It also isn't a craft. It's the rocket stage for the Constellation project. Ares I is the light lifter, Ares V is the heavy lifter. Orion is the orbiting module and Altair is the lunar lander. The plan is to modify the Orion/Altair pairing for a Mars mission later using information they get from the lunar missions. The target date to put humans on Mars is 2037 though, so it is very possible that the plan will change before then.

And you can't carry enough supplies right now. The ISS has enough power to stay in orbit, not to fly 50,000,000 miles. The Orion/Altair pairing just isn't big enough to hold everything yet and you can't power something the size of the ISS to Mars. I think the idea is to eventually boost up supply capsules that Orion can rendezvous with on the way, but that's still kind of a pie-in-the-sky idea at this point in time.