The Last Presidential Debate 10.15.08 @ 9PM
 

Thoughts...

I personally think it was McCain's best debate yet!

I'm still really impressed with Obama's debate performaces. I'm glad he defended himself when McCain spoke about negative ads.

Results? I'm guessing 50/50. I saw no real overall winner! McCain won the first half, Obama defeated John in the last half!

McCain seemed to think that Joe the Plumber would make more than $250K a year. I seriously doubt that.

When they were talking about the crazies at McCain/Palin rallies and Obama pointed out that Palin never stopped and corrected people who yelled "terrorist" or "Kill Him", McCain didn't defend her. He said that he has made a point to always stop that kind of talk when he hears it.

Obama said that 100% of McCain's ads were negative. I think that's wrong. I saw one that wasn't.. that touts the McCain/Palin "Maverick" line. I don't think that one mentions Obama at all.

McCain was right that Obama's ad about stem cell research simply says "stem cell research" and not "embryonic stem cell research" which really is a key distinction to those who oppose the embryonic stem cell research. I've never heard anybody complain about adult stem cell research.

Those are the main discrepancies I picked up. They were definitely more lively in this one.

Nothing new for me either. I, of course, think McCain smoked him. He stayed on top of every topic, and seemed to listen to EVERY word BO said, and corrected it when necessary. Obama sounded like the same 'shell' of a man I've thought he's been this whole time. No substance to him.

Did anyone here Dennis Miller on O'Reilly? He sounded a little hopped up on something, but it was still funny.

I just looked at them both while they were looking into the monitor. BO really makes me think of Bush, blahblahblah, I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I'll pretend like I do, blahblahblah. McCain really gave me comfort, but maybe I'm just an 'ageist' and think the older male thing is more presidential. Did y'all catch the snip at BO about 'if you wanted to run against Bush, you should've done it three years ago!' that was funny.

Polls, Polls, Polls
 

Waiting on the polls...

Are there any reports out?

Wow! That's the first... Barack Obama reminds you of George Bush! Gee....I see SOO many differences.

I laughed at McCain's comment about running against Bush, because it was a possible come back I have thought of since the very first debate. I was just waiting for John to say it!

Far and away McCain's best debate. He finally won tonight in my opinion instead of just having both candidates get bogged down, but despite the fact it was a win, it wasn't the knockout he needed. Too little, too late. If we had that John McCain the whole campaign he wins with a decent margin, but finally showing up at the last debate won't turn the tide. McCain has fought back from being behind before, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think it was enough.

Actually a plumber who owns a plumbing business and employs several plumbers can easily exceed this amount. I believe that is what the 'Joe Plumber' was referring to.

I agree that this was McCain's best debate yet but I don't believe that he smoked Obama. Obama stayed very cool and collected when challenged and I like that. I think that McCain accomplished his goal of 'going after Obama' so to speak pretty effectively. I loved the format and I think that both candidates were able to speak to some of the false accusations that are being said about them. My humble opinion is that this will help McCain in the polls but not enough to overcome Obama's momentum.

McCain did very well. AAAAAAAAAAAH if only he hadn't picked an arch-conservative as his running mate! Palin can NOT be allowed to become President, and if McCain wins, she'd be one heartbeat away.

Meh. Connecticut isn't exactly a battleground state, so it's not like my vote counts. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I forgot the highlight of the debate.

Now Republicans have a nickname to call America's new big-tax, big-spend overlord:
SENATOR GOVERNMENT. Funniest mis-speak in politics I've heard in a long time because, well, it fits.

CrackerBarrel--I have to admit, I laughed at that too!! Only because the mistake was convenient for John at that moment.

I listened to the first half of the debate while driving to an event, and I had a really hard time following McCain. Maybe it came across better on TV, but on NPR it sounded like he couldn't keep his thoughts straight. I much prefer Obama's style of debating, which is very calm and deliberate. McCain's style reminds me so much of George Bush, with his giggling at his own jokes and periods of veryfasterratictalk mixed with the slow, condescending pandering.

I was tired of hearing John McCain whine about how BO did not repudiate Lewis' words. Get over it. Move on. And the thought of Palin becoming president scares the h**l out of me.

I guess I am the only one that heard "breasts of fresh air"...McCain was doing fine early on but midway thru the debate right after Obama explained Ayers and ACORN and kept it moving, McCain looked like he got angry because he couldn't fluster Obama. I didn't listen to too much of the policy because it was all stuff we heard before but a big thing I noted was McCain's inability to explain a lot of finer points like on education and taxes and seemed a bit whiny at times as if he was saying 'Well what about this one?"

I did enjoy Obama telling McCain that if he wanted words with Lewis...call him...BUT I must admit I enjoyed McCain telling Obama that if he wanted to run against Bush he should have ran 4 years ago....LOL...he was getting all feisty and stuff...LOL however that was his last good moment.

Worse yet, he had to have lost a lot more votes in explaining his stance on abortion.

Also was it me or couldn't McCain NOT adequately explain how Palin would be good in running the country should something happen to him?

...at least he shook his hand at the end but McCain looked very angry and Obama looked very presidential and it showed...McCain is not the kind of guy I want sitting at the table with a foreign leader when talks break down and he decides to have a hissy fit.

If nothing else after this is over these guys could start a kindergarten line of political books and movies:

Sarah the Lipsticked Pitbull

Helen the Hockey Mom Goes to the Polls

Joe Six Pack and Raiders of the Lost Vote

Joe the Pandering Plumber

speaking of....here is Joe the Plumber

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/...oe_the_plumber

LOL at 'Joe the plumber'.

I guess I'm just not into the whole Obama 'relief' promises. I would say that I'm decidedly upper-middle class, but I know that when you are 'helping' out one group another one will suffer. I don't believe in leveling the playing field in this instance. I don't think that we should be giving hand-outs or 'sharing the wealth' as Obama is preaching. I have a real problem with having to fix other people's lives, because of there own poor decision making. I know (for all you bleeding heart liberals) that not everyone could help what was happening to them, but why are there lines around the corner the first day of the month at the Social Services building. Then the next day, those same people are lounging around outside, doing NOTHING. 'Welfare to work' is a crock of isht.

Sorry for my morning rant, but encountered a guy early today who's on SSD. His reason for being on SSD: 'I get mad. I can't be at a job, because I'll just get mad and walk off.' I see how BO's wanting to help with tax relief, but I just don't think that he sees the domino affect of it all. Raise tax on big business --> big business moves jobs overseas to save money --> unemployment rates increase. This is a very bare bones hypothesis, obviously there is more to it than that. Linked to what we talked about in the other thread, just because you can afford it, why do you have to pay more? Why should I work harder? I'll just stay in my station.

I also think that's why he seemed almost smug and flippant when McCain asked him questions. He had a 'whatever, I've already won' attitude to me. There are people who really take his 'associations' whatever they may be seriously, I was disappointed to see his attitude. I just can't believe that people are so gung-ho to put a 47-year-old, junior senator in office. Do you ever wonder why Chavez has supported BO? Because, he's a pushover, easy to manipulate!

no matter who wins I won't like the vice-president

I do think it was McCain's best debate yet except . . .

We watched it on CNN which had a split screen most of the time. The looks on McCain's face when Obama was talking were priceless, and not in a good way for McCain. It was almost like he was trying live up to the characterization of him as an angry, erratic old man. One of the pundits on CNN (can't remember who) said afterward that he looked an old Mr. Crotchety who's always yelling "Get off my lawn, y' darn kids!" It not look presidential.

And I have to comment on this as well: At one point I asked my wife if there was something wrong with McCain's dentures. I don't know that he wears them, and there's nothing wrong with wearing them, but his speech at times sounded like someone whose dentures aren't fitting quite right, and I didn't think it was helping his image of the candidate in his 70s with Sarah Palin as his running mate. Ten or fifteen minutes later, my 11-year-old came downstairs to get something before bed. He watched for a couple of minutes and then asked, "Is something wrong with McCain's dentures?" Yes, I laughed.

As for McCain going after Obama, that didn't play well with CNN's Ohio focus group. Their dial-meter readings dropped off noticeably when McCain did that. Same thing with Joe the Plumber. As soon as those words would come out of McCain's mouth, the approval would drop off markedly.

It was McCain's best debate, but as someone said, too little too late, and it was aimed at the wrong people. It played well to McCain's supporters -- it energized them and injected some much needed enthusiasm for the McCain campaign. But they aren't the people McCain needed to reach -- he needed to reach the independent/swing voters who are still deciding. Going on the attack about Ayers and acting like he can't control his anger don't help him get that group. (ETA: And he needed to try and convince some who are planning to vote for Obama to change their minds.) To those people, McCain "going on the attack" didn't look bold and decisive; it looked, well, erratic, angry and irrelevant to what people care about (the economy). Meanwhile, what looked like Obama's "smugness" to McCain's supporters looked, I think, like self-control and coolness-under-pressure to others.

All the polls I saw were showing the perception that Obama won hands down. I think we've hit the point where most people were seeing McCain (and Obama) through the lens of the opinions they'd already formed.

I'd like to see a "Miss America" style debate. You get two minutes to answer a question and your competitor is in a little soundproof booth so you can't hear their answer. If you don't respond to the actual question, you don't "move on" (ie - you get skipped for the next question). No going back and commenting on previous responses! ;)

as long as there is no bathing suit competition...it sounds like a fine idea....

LOL.

Is next . . . Eveningwear! Very Nice.

This piece posted at FiveThirtyEight.com is interesting: Where McCain Lost It.

I had the exact same reaction to the split screen -- it did NOT do McCain any favors. And I agree with everything you posted above, I also read that fivethirtyeight.com article this morning and agree with it, too.

The split screen also showed Obama smiling & laughing when McCain spoke.

I actually thought McCain did better last night than the other debates. Like a few people have said though, the trouble with "doing better" is that right now he's not trying to win over conservatives, he's trying to win the swing voters. For a voter like me (who admittedly has been leaning Obama since the announcement of Palin as VP) he needed to explain how Palin wasn't a liability and how he wouldn't make it a priority overturn Roe v. Wade. Instead he doesn't explain anything about Palin and basically says that he would pick judges based on qualifications but (really fast at the end of his answer - I almost didn't catch it) that he "do[es] not believe that someone who has supported Roe v. Wade that would be part of those qualifications."

I think for people who already supported McCain, it was a good debate. Definitely his best of the three. But I don't think he addressed the issues that independent voters are focused on, at least where I live.

It did, but IMHO (and the opinions of quite a few others I've heard comment on it), Obama's smiles and laughs came across differently.

Again, bearing in mind what I said earlier -- that we may have reached the point where we were all seeing the debate through the lens of the opinions we've already formed -- Obama's smiles and laughs, in the contezxt of his general appearance as cool and controlled, typically came across as "that's just so silly or so off that it's not worth responding to," while McCain's came across as angry or (in the words of one of my co-workers) "deranged."

Granted, these are all subjective perceptions, but that's what a lot of it is about now. The snap polls, at least, seem to indicate that, while McCain did his best debate job yet, the debate did not help improve his perception among the voters he needs to reach.

And now, in the aftermath, we get this news: the real Joe the Plumber, who was mentioned a couple of dozen times in the debate, and who seemingly is [well, maybe was] Senator McCain's symbol of those who might face tax problems .... . ...... Well, Joe apparently owes $1,100 plus to the state of Ohio. For unpaid taxes. Income taxes.


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/s...6047360&page=1

Excerpt:

"There is a judgment lien against him for nonpayment of income tax," Barb Losie, deputy clerk of the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, told ABCNews.com.

I'd almost feel sorry for Senator McCain, except that this is exactly the kind of stuff a decent campaign worker / factchecker should have found out before Joe made it into the script / prep for the third debate speeches. A quick check of public records, just as a precaution, would have been a good idea.

Oh well, every campaign has glitches.

Yeah, I agree with your interpretation of how people are seeing the debate. I was reading right leaning coverage, and it referred to Obama's smug smirk.

It was a great debate that finally made up my mind who to vote for. For the second time in as many debates, McCain brought up the 3 million Obama voted in favor of for an "overhead projector" for a planetarium - which BTW was never approved. Since I have a telescope housed in my own observatory I looked it up, and it's a the Adler Planetarium in Chicago. Their old star projector - it's about the size of a small car - is old and no longer supported by Zeiss, the manufacturer, and they need a new one. It will cost 10 million, seven of which will be raised privately.

The media did not pick up on this, I suppose, because science just doesn't stimulate the public. But it's what put us on the moon, put satellites into orbit for weather, communications, and national security, and gave us views from the Hubble that will unlock the secrets of the universe. Many people are first inspired by a visit to a planetarium, and go on to dedicate themselves to life in science. The public needs more exposure to it, not less.

McCain doesn't see the value in it, and uses it against Obama as nothing more than wasteful pork barrel spending. If that's his attitude, then I'm voting for Obama. It's time we had someone who's well educated in the White House, and someone who appreciates the value of education.

Some science obviously should be funded at that national level, but it's hard to see why this particular item, while worthy of being paid for at some level, needs to be paid for at the Federal level.

My point was that McCain called it an "overhead projector", like you'd place a book on to show the class in high school. He wanted us to think it was absurdly wasteful, like the million dollar toilet seat for a C5. In effect, he lied.

So in this case McCains' mudslinging backfired, and he convinced me to vote for the other candidate.

Technically it's an accurate description. It projects things overhead. Just sayin'.

According to my boyfriend, this planetarium and museum is supposed to be the largest of its kind in the country or something. It's a big deal to science. He says there was all kinds of chatter online after the first debate in which it was mentioned...scientists all over were pissed.

ETA: Adler is the oldest planetarium in the country.

here's some more on the so-called "overhead projector"
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/222859.php
http://cbs13.com/campaign08/obama.mc....2.836336.html
http://gizmodo.com/5060946/barack-ob...ly-pretty-cool
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...8/1518907.aspx (has links to a bunch of other sites that think McCain's statement sucks, too)

ETA some more: for those of you who don't think this museum and research institution benefits our country, and therefore doesn't deserve federal funding, I'd like to hear why you think the federal govt. should keep supplying nearly $40 billion of our tax money to YOUR schools every year. We do these things because an educated society is a strong society.

I don't think the federal government should be in education. They only provide 20% of funding - and get in the way. I am perfectly confident in the ability of states to handle education.

So do I get to criticize the funding? :)

I live in Chicago, and I grew up with the Adler Planetarium "in my backyard." When you live in a big city, you take things for granted. It is one of my favorite places. I was under the impression that the Zeiss projector is very old and has needed to be replaced for awhile (10+ years, perhaps). Coming up with the funds has never been easy. The money should come from somewhere within Chicago or private contributors. I believe that passing the replacement cost onto a federal government that is already in the midst of a federal mortgage bailout, a possible stock market crash, and on the verge of a recession is irresponsible. I love science. I love education. But let the big guys that have the money pay for this. The United States government should not be held responsible for having to spend federal funds for such a private purpose. Sure Obama wants it. It will keep everybody in Chicago happy. But I have to agree with McCain on this one.

As I already pointed out, Congress did not approve the funds, even though the amount is so small that if I sold all my assets I could personally pay for it myself. This thread is about the debate, and in my opinion McCain's comments misled the public, and the fact that he used Obama's support of the planetarium as a means of derision demonstrates his lack of interest in the sciences as a whole.

Can't districts/schools opt out of receiving federal funds? I seem to recall my high school being threatened years ago that they'd have any federal grants/funding revoked if they didn't allow military recruiters on campus. The district was contemplating it.

Since when does 'no $$$$$' (that's BIG bucks, btw) equal 'I don't give a rat's ass about science'? I think it's great that Obama had finally tried to do something constructive while in office, but too bad it didn't go through. Do you think that maybe the people that rejected his proposal might have thought there were more worthwhile items to spend the money on?

Hmmm . . .would they then no longer be under federal regulation i.e. No Child Left Behind?

In theory, perhaps. Practically speaking, I seriously doubt it.

Isn't the real incentive (for schools anyway) for NCLB funding? Anyhow, my former district's high schools aren't on the NCLB watch list anyway. And if I recall, this happened before NCLB was implemented.