Some of you take Southern pride to the extreme and act is if there's a 1) hierarchy of chapters based on region and 2) huge difference in most practices (such as pledging and hazing) based on region.

I find that there are several schools in the South where this is not the case...and many chapter members that would take offense to such a label. More and more chapters include Hispanics, Blacks and other ethnicities and often times members have to work to put themselves through school, as well as pay their own dues. I do not think politics has anything to do with faculty/admin feelings toward Greeks. I think it is the lack of a congruence between what we say we believe and what we actually do that causes the most concern and friction. Hazing would be an example of that lack of congruence.

DSTS, thats because there is one, but thats not my point....


Heather, politics has everything to do with it (and not necc. on a republican-democrat example, but that is there as well). Similar example, why are most democrats so against guns? Not because they really think gun control makes us that much safer, it doesn't, but because they dislike the demographics of people who like guns (Southern, White, Republican). Similarly, those administrators and faculty who take action against greeks (and there are a huge amount) generally don't know what goes on in greek life, but they know the stereotypes, and those stereotypes go against what they support. As to your point about my labels, I was referring to the major southern universities where greek life is generally thought to be outstanding. For the purpose of my statements, ignore Florida, it is southern only by geography. When you consider the great southern greek schools such as Ole Miss, Alabama, Auburn, UGA, Texas, Clemson, Washington and Lee, etc... the huge majority of those in white fraternities will be fairly wealthy and very conservative. This will not sit well with academia, but more importantly in contributing to their dislike for fraternities is the fact that they are not inclusive. They generally do not like the fact that there are conscious decisions being made to exclude some people from the fraternity, although that is essential to the functioning of a fraternity. Many in our current society, especially administrators and professors, feel as though students should have their self esteem coddled, and that nobody should face rejection. However, the point of greek life is to join like minded people into a social organization, not to simply create a microcosm of society. People should begin to view greek organizations how they should be viewed, as private clubs.

I thought they disliked them because of all the violence and gang activity not to mention the fact that many children are killed by playing with guns that their parents own and hide. That has nothing to do with being Southern, White, or Republican.

Well lets try and not let the conversation stray to gun control entirely, but yes, it has everything to do with who likes guns. Why then, would you continually support such a failed policy? Statistics have continually proven that gun control does little to curb gun crime (if you don't believe me, check out the best selling book "Freakanomics"). You, as a liberal I assume, probably do feel that gun control is a good idea because you would like to prevent gun crime. Meanwhile, those politicians who vote to enact such legislation are informed to the point they realize gun control does little, but such positions endear them to voters like yourself, while also pitting them against their opposition (wealthy, white, republican). For an example from the other direction, lets look at flag burning or school prayer. As a Republican, I can assure you that very few Republicans feel very strongly about either issue. Why then, are such issues so often brought up? Because it goes against the opposition, those who are the most evil in the GOP's mind, the ultra liberal ACLU types. Trust me, democrats know that the huge majority of gun control measures hold little legitimacy, but they also know that it stirs up the ranks, and is a sharp jab to the opposition.

No......

Well, believe what you will, but there most certainly is. Maybe I don't know enough about other regions (although I'm fairly well traveled), but from what I can tell, in no other region do greek systems hold the clout and prominence that those in the South do. There is much more tradition involved, much more power involved, and often times much more money involved. I'm not putting down other region's greek systems, but the emphasis on greek life in the south is immense, and I really don't think that is refutable. Regarding hazing and pledging, I think there may be a difference, but I'm not sure. In the south, hazing is most commonly for constructive purposes (lineups, putting pledges in difficult situations and requiring them to work together to get out of it), and I don't know what its for everywhere else. I think in there probably is a different aspect of pledging in the South, one that focuses on becoming a gentleman, dressing appropriately...almost a cotillion for students. They may do this other places, but like I said, I don't know.

I believe what I know to be true (versus false and based on biases and self-importance). :)

I'm from/in the South and also know about other regions. That's why I made the initial post. ;)

Of course I'm biased. But it appears that so are you, even to the point that common knowledge eludes you.

That didn't make sense but you knew that already. ;)

Irregardless of your opinion on the matter, I still believe in the greek hierarchy. Yes, I also realize irregardless isn't a actual word, but it makes me laugh.

Oh Well, that explains it all!:p

;)

I believe in purple polka dot lions sometimes. Never seen proof of their existence but I believe they exist...irregardlesslyousnessly.

And

again what is the reason for Your Post? Is it above above and beyond the call of Nada?:(

My reason for my posts are pretty obvious and they are based on the "Southern pride" trend I have noticed in a few threads:

1) There is no Greek hierarchy that places Southern chapters above nonSouthern chapters
2) Southern pledging and hazing practices aren't really different than pledging and hazing practices elsewhere

But as always, Tom, you should ignore me when I'm not posting to you. :rolleyes:

I've read most of this thread before I put my two cents in and I will qualify my statements by saying I AM from the North, and I AM from a small chapter. I also have only been affliated with my GLO for one year... however I have done alot of research into standards that my GLO sets and those of other organizations, and I have friends in alot of different organizations... have i covered my ass yet enough for everybody on here cuz y'all like to jump down people's throats....

I PERSONALLY believe that the "strength" of some southern schools has alot to do with parents. There seem to be alot more legacies and/or people whose parents were greek in a different organization. These parents most likely went through some crazy hazing and are more likely to counsel their kids that "it'll get better" or "it's worth it" than parents who either never went greek or even never went to college and just don't get greek life period, never mind "getting" hazing.

And furthermore, hazing is NOT a southern issue, let me tell you. I won't use names of organizations local or national, tho it's NOT mine. but hazing happens up here, and everyone knows it. Groups have been derecognized by our university for it. And our once decently sized greek system here has disappeared as anti-hazing laws have appeared and cracked down over the years.

Hazing acc. to FIPG is a huge list of things... and hazing in undergrads minds is another thing. what it boils down to is personal respocibility. Do what you want to do, as long as you are willing to take ANY POTENTIAL concequences. Example: If you know an organization is going to haze the hell out of you and you sign a bid, then you become a dropper and rat everyone out, you're just an idiot. you knew what was coming to you. I'm not saying it's right. But use your brain. and YES i think 18 yr olds have a brain. it may be hormone filled and alcohol addled but hey it's there. use it.

I also think that the north and the (more affluent) south have different cultures, and i respect that. up here we don't have cotillion, junior league, or any of that stuff. And so i think the types of hazing you see in different areas reflect thier different cultures.

sorry i've covered so many points, i've read alot of different posts that i had opinions on today.... and in conclusion i'd like to say, hey, maybe there are activities that are technically considered hazing that you believe have merit. I can definately get behind the fact that some idiots took scavenger hunts too far and ruined them for the rest of us who could use them very safely. but it is what it is. we live in the good old U.S. of A. and one of the prices we pay for our freedoms is that we do live in a very litigious society where we DO have to cover our asses because someone WILL sue you, and we DO have to make strict but broad laws because some asshole somewhere WILL take it too far, ruin it for everyone else, and THEN someone will sue. It sucks, but why argue it, because it is what it is until we change our whole national culture, and that's not a job I want, go for it if you feel up to tackling it. Or be the next Thoreau and be civily disobedient and take the concequences. Unfortunately in greek life, a whole ORGANIZATION can be forced to live our your concequence, and I'm not willing to be in the bullseye of every other person I accidentally screwed over. So, i'll follow a few silly rules, nationally or of my GLO, that I disagree with in order to get the bennefits of other rules that have great merit.

Kuddos and very well put.

North and South, East and West, Chapters are still governed by National Rules and guide lines and I am sure that each GLO expects them to be adhered to.

There is news daily of Chapters who are dechartered by Nationals or removed from schools. There must be a reason for it isnt there?


College Tuition goes up yearly and to pay for Greek Organizations stay the same except for insurance. There is only so much money a student has to pay out for extra activities.

Very well said and laid out.
Hazing is all over-at least 3 of the chapters at my school were rather hard core about; and one just about brainwashed the pledges.
We, while in 20/20 hindsight, came close to the egde, did build the groups-both the pledge class and then the whole in a positive way.

Hazing just to do it because it was done to you, your father, et al is wrong.

Hazing has nothing to do with being a Greek. It is sad to say that other groups do it as well as you may have seen in the papers or on-line in the past few weeks.

It is sad to say that it goes on at all. Anywhere, by any group.

And when it happens and ends up get out, it hurts more than that one group.

It hurts all groups.

It appears that you are biased as well. I am also a strong believer that the South produces a huge majority of the best chapters in the country. When it boils down to wealth, representation, legacy, power, history, etc. I think of Southern chapters......and I have had the pleasure of seeing the Greek life at many schools around the country. I could sit here and comment on many strong chapters, but I won't. I am an SAE, so i'll go with that. It doesn't get any better than Alabama, Georgia, Vandy, Texas etc. etc. When you go to leadership schools up North with a group of brothers from the South and are practically worshiped there......then you know your place.

Since I'm from and in the South, it seems as though I'd be biased in favor of the "Southern chapter hierarchy."

Instead, I think the belief in such a hierarchy is a crock based on pretention and self-importance. Bias that. :)

If thats all you are going to do, then there is no point in debating the issue. You haven't backed up your claims the least bit.

This was never a debate.

Neither have you. Pretention, classism, and snootiness "do not a hierarchy make." ;)

Rich traditions, history, and good deeds are extremely valuable and can add to one's bias in favor of Southern chapters. Notice I referenced "bias in favor" which is not the same thing as the existence of an actual hierarchy. ;)

It looked like it was turning into one. Oh well.

Nope.......

Well theres no way to debate this based on fact. You could probably bring up the mansions southern fraternities live in, the common 6-7 figure operating budgets the chapters have, and the amount of people in the chapter. That probably wouldnt be enough for most, as just because you have a lot of guys and nice things and a lot of money isn't enough because up north they have that "true brotherhood" we lack down south. I'm personally ok with that.

I'm glad you realize what I've been saying from the beginning--a belief in a Southern chapter hierarchy isn't based on fact. :D

I think most chapters in the nation with a house will have at least six figure operating budgets.

I guess you could be right, but then again, I've been to several chapters where their operating budget is barely as large as our social budget. But either way, I guess I'd rephrase from 6 figure, to several hundred thousand pr seven figures.

Shiner, you should have said 5-6 figure social budgets....which I know is true for many including some down here in Austin. Hell, lets just say the budgets are large enough to do whatever you please, whenever you want. i.e. - unlimited funds.

Sorry, long post....

Isn't everyone soooo tired of having the same old hazing discussion? No one really has a clear definition of hazing.

ADPi says making the "new members" clean the house is hazing. It's even hazing if I'm cleaning it with them. My chapter told me I could get in trouble for buying a "new member" a drink. I was told I couldn't use profanity around the "new members". "New members" and actives alike no longer have to stand when an Aluma enters the room. All this is a crock of SH**.

None of this is hazing.

Rules like the above are the reason Greek invovlement is down. You can have a girl come in, pay her money, and never even know 1/2 of the chapter members' names, never say thank you when an alumna comes to help, never bother with anything non-scholarship related.

Making them scrub the toilet with a toothbrush, yelling profanities directed AT them in a non-joking manner, and forcing them to drink 20 shots IS hazing, and in NO WAY should be tolerated.

New members these days have NO respect. We took away the term pledge so the have no loyalty to anything. I do not believe in ANY sort of mental or physical hazing. I would also NEVER participate in anything like that. But I
respect the people that came before me. And joining just to pad your resume or for networking purposes pisses me off.

Greek life today is for those who fall into 5 catergories:

1. Legacies who don't realize it's not the same as your mom/dad/whoevers chapter
2. People that like to hang out and have extra money to spend
3. People who see an opportunity to network
4. People who view it as a way to keep their grades up
5. People who want to hang out with the opposite sex

Sororities, and some fraternites are no longer sister/brotherhoods. Most GLOs are soooooooooo deseprate to be the 'biggest' (READ: best) that they'll take just about anybody. I'd rather have 5 dedicated members who will BLEED azure blue and white than have 100 member who just want to say their and ADPi.

If you go to the right schools......then joining a fraternity as a legacy will give you a definite chance to be exactly like your father. I'm doing it right now. When you have power......it makes a huge difference

Biggest doesn't read best....I disagree with that statement. Sig Eps are the types that take everyone with their Balanced Man program...and it destroys their chapter.

I guess the schools that I like to frequent haven't jumped on that bandwagon of not being very selective and not using the term "pledge."

First line- um, yeah, because chances are that buying a new member a drink is ILLEGAL as most new members will be under 21. So it is both illegal and can be a risk management issue.

Your next point that I quoted- citations, please?

The next point- examples, citations, etc.? Maybe if you picked the respectful women to join your group and treated them with respect yourself. Respect is earned, it is not a right. It doesn't sound like you have much, if any respect for new members, so why should they respect you? And what do you even define as "no respect"?

As for the last one- again, citations, etc.? It's just a meaningless blanket statement with absolutely nothing to back it up.

Hope you feel better after your rant, because most of what you said is blatantly false.

So which do you fall into?

I'm 6. Those who meet life long friends during that short time of rush

Oh, and I just graduated, so I must qualify as "Greek Life these days"

Hi i just discovered this forum today and this thread caught my attention so i have some things to say.

my background: i have been in a somewhat small frat with less than 20 chapters nationwide for a year. people like to keep it that way so we have quality guys over quantity (i know at least 1 person from every chapter). it is known for "hazing" heavily which is probably the reason i'm in it. call me stupid if you want, but before joining, i had thought about my reasons in doing so for 5-6 months. here are my reasons/goals hoping to accomplish for joining (listed based on priority):

1. a brotherhood, not a friendship
2. a personal goal (accomplishing a difficult mental and physical task)
3. forced time management/school
4. fun/memories
5. network

after my pledgeship i can say with confidence that all but #3 were fulfilled right away. #3 took a little more time to achieve and i'm still in the process of improving that.

my stance on "hazing": i have been using the term "hazing" in quotes this whole time because of its ambiguity i've seen throughout the thread. to me, "hazing" doesn't exist in greek life. this is my opinion because "hazing" can't be tied to something that is completely voluntary. i.e. when you are in a frat/sorority and "hazing" occurs, you can choose to depledge anytime. in the military, there is hazing because once you sign a up and go off to basic, there is no depledging.

i think joining a GLO needs to be set apart from just a group of friends. that difference is pledging and all the difficulties and challenges that go with it. without that difference, you might as well join a group of people who are friends with common interests and call it the baby sitters club.

when i was pledging "hazing" didn't directly build brotherhood. the things that build brotherhood are the sharing of time, experience, trust, and sacrafice. it just so happens that the method of "hazing" in my frat includes all of those. for everyone in my frat "hazing" gets harsh, but in the end, those who are "hazing" will always congratulate the pledges, no grudges exist, and nothing is personal. i.e. after a long night and finishing a difficult event, actives who were yelling, acting mean, and being harsh during the event, would always congratulate pledges when they finished their task. it is in this that pledges will see respect, and feel brotherhood.

for those who have never experienced "hazing": i am telling you that based on my experiences it for sure made me closer to my brothers in the frat. if you can say the same about your GLO sisters/brothers when you haven't gone through it, ask yourself why you call them your sisters/brothers and not just close friends? (and the answer to that is not in the letters you wear)

what is a brotherhood without sacrafice? what is a brotherhood without knowing the other person's pain? what is a brotherhood when you can't cry infront of them? what is a brotherhood when you can't be direct and honest? what is a brotherhood without unique experiences to reflect and laugh on? what is a brotherhood without secrets and inside jokes? what is a brotherhood without respect?

the bond of best friends exists because they have all gone through hard times with eachother, whether it be together or against eachother, hard times nonetheless.

imagine then the origin of the bond of brotherhood...



“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother; be never so vile. This day shall gentle his condition. And gentlemen in England now abed shall think themselves accursed they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.”
-William Shakespeare

hope you had fun in your "frat."

Actually the last one is true. See: Sig EP Balanced Man chapters. "Hey, we think were bad ass becaue we had 85 pledges and a 185 person house."

So do only Big schools and big Houses are acceptable?

I call BS as if it were not for smaller schools then All of the Big GLOs would be a whole lot smaller wouldnt they!

If I had not had been at at a smaller school and LXA had not been expanding I would not be on this Site.

Thank You for You big schools with big Chapters who are better than anyone else!:o

I don't think that big chapters at big schools are better than everyone else. I think many chapters at SMU, TCU, etc. and other small schools are really bad ass. Hell, I go to a university with 55,000+ students and the chapters here are pretty reasonable. I think having huge chapters for the sake of numbers is ridiculous. Since when did selectiveness become a bad thing?

Selectivity is generally viewed as evil on this website...to quote the Academy Award winning film The Skulls, "If its secret and elite, it can't be good." Personally however, if something is secret and/or elite, I want in.