LOL! You know, I intensely dislike misbehaving children. I understand that children have bad days...we all do. But, I'm talking about consistenly poorly behaving children whose parents have absolutely no control over them.

ALL the children in the family housing dorms where I live are B.A.D. Makes me wanna scream!

A couple of days ago, I was trying on shoes in Ann Taylor with my mom. This woman was shopping with her whole family, husband and 2 girls both under the age of 5. Well, while mommy is looking at dresses, the 2 girls are running around the store barefoot (:eek:), screaming, and grabbing things. The father is just sitting there not saying anything, like this is perfectly normal behavior. I made a comment to my mother about how those kids need to learn some manners and how I was a brat when I was little, but I would have never done that, and he shot me a look that was equivalent to the Avada Kedavra curse.

You're cutting your terminology too broadly.

Your examples are not examples of an 'anti-child society' - instead, they are breakdowns in parenting technique, or rather a shift away from 'traditional' parenting methods. You're assigning negative value to this shift on your own; whether this is actually negative is unclear, and DEFINITELY up for argument far beyond what you've claimed.

Much more important, however, is that you're not addressing the actual issues raised by others. You're essentially strawmanning - because people are less 'personal' or 'intimate' or 'traditional' in parenting, society must be anti-child - when I think that others have pointed out that concessions made by the public at large for children (as well as the tolerance for 'bad' behavior by babies) means that society probably is not 'anti-baby' and may, in fact, be increasing toward the opposite.

Neither point is incorrect, but can you see how they are not directly antithetical (or even interrelated)?

-RC
--In other words, you ARE seeing it precisely because you ARE looking for it . . . selection bias much?

Thank you! That was exactly the phrase my tired brain was looking for.

I see society increasingly becoming more child friendly, whether I like it or not. There are playgrounds in the mall, pregnant and family parking that is closer than the handicapped spots, even children's menus appearing at my favorite 4 star jacket and tie required restaurant! Parents and even other adults laugh it off when kids do something wrong, and instead of appologizing, they just say that kids will be kids. I even have had people bring their children to bbq and keg nights, the last of which the parents knew there would be a stripper performing. They assumed that the kids could stay in a bedroom and play video games. Maybe if some parents weren't so pushy to take their children everywhere and weren't as permissive, it wouldn't seem like so many people dislike children. I'm very iffy on children anyways, they seem like 18 years of work and money without a very big payoff. However, I might be guilty of selection bias myself, as I don't like kids.

However, I don't see anything wrong with this cover, as the intended audience is parents. In real life, I am all for breastfeeding, but not in public. It doesn't take but a modicum of modesty for me to never notice though.

P.S. The first few weeks when a baby needs to eat every few hours, shouldn't the mother and baby be home resting/recooperating? I didn't think a newborn's immune system was fully functioning yet, and thus, shouldn't be exposed to many strangers?

You know, if Dad was with the kids, he could have taken them to a toy store or something...or even stayed home with them.

That's what I thought, especially since Zany Brainy is right across the street, but I guess not.

Sweet Jebus, I go out of town for two days and this thread explodes. I'll try and remember everything.

RE: BFing and infertility/miscarriages. I've had two miscarriages (consecutive, less than 5 months apart) and never once was I "offended" by people with babies in any way. I was sad and I was wistful, but I was never offended. I knew they had no control over how I reacted to them, that was completely my deal. Now that I have a child of my own, I try to be thoughtful of those who may be going through what I went through but I don't completely change my way of life for it.

RE: Attachment Parenting. I have a lot of friends who do variations of APing. Some are complete Extended BFing, cloth-diapering, baby-wearing, co-sleeping parents. Some are just BFing and CDing parents. Some are baby wearers and co-sleepers. As with anything in life, you have to figure out what works best for you and you alone. To hell with Ferber, Weissbluth or the Sleep lady or your neighbor, church friend or coworker. Figure out what works for you, but don't judge someone if they choose to do something different. Their baby is not your baby, and they may not react the same yours does. FWIW I'm a modified co-sleeper (he goes to sleep in his crib, but we bring him in with us when he wakes for the first time in the morning). I have a ring sling that I've never gotten to work and a front carrier which is very uncomfortable. I'd love a Maya wrap, Mei Tai or a Mei Hip carrier (probably not yet, though as my son doesn't quite have good enough head control) but just haven't gotten around to getting one yet. Weak excuse? Probably, but that's how it is. He slept in his swing for the first two months because that's what worked for us, and we still use it when we need to get things done around the house. My son gets plenty of holding and cuddle time. He knows we love him.

RE: Pumping/working. I chose to go back to work at 7 weeks. Could I have stayed home, possibly, but it would have taken a lot of sacrifice and budgeting, neither of which my husband nor I were in the proper mindset to discuss and decide after my son was here. I had a low milk supply. Not alleged, definitive as told by a Lactation Consultant. I tried a slew of remedies to increase it: oatmeal, fenugreek, Mother's Milk Tea, power pumping, using a supplemental nursing system, NOTHING would help it increase. Once I went back to work, it tanked completely. I was dry within a week. Obviously, pumping at work was not something I could do. I wanted to BF, desperately. I am still having a difficult time accepting my failed nursing relationship and my son is 5 months old. My oldest sister was able to pump at work and nurse her son for 11 months (until he bit her and she decided that was it). My other sister is a SAHM to two beautiful girls. Due to supply issues, she was only able to BF her oldest for about 4 months. She BFed her youngest for about 8 but had to stop due to my niece's food allergies (that niece also has a medical condition and they were concerned about her gaining enough weight) Again, it all depends on the person and their individual situation.

I don't know if it's that our society has become more child-friendly, it's that some parents are treating their children not as children but more as equals and expect them to do everything the parents do (and thereby make others do the same). I don't necessarily agree with that, nor do I agree with Helicopter Parenting (which I have experienced in my 5 years as an advisor). I do know that I have ideas of how I would like to raise my children, but those are not set completely in stone. A lot will depend on individual situations. And, those ideas are mine and mine alone. How other people decide to raise their children is completely up to them, and I will not judge or interfere (unless there is abuse).

You can recuperate but still leave the house, you just need to take it slower/easier. And, if you're concerned about your baby's health, you can limit contact with strangers, even outside the house. Seriously, try staying at home, not ever leaving your house, for three or four weeks. While you're at it, sleep in two or three 30-45 minute streches throughout the day. Also, set your alarm to go off at 12:00 am, 3:00 am and 5:30 am, each time staying awake for 30-45 minutes. Have your cat (or dog) constantly make noise. Don't change your clothes and maybe get a shower in every 3rd day. You will go stir-crazy. It's important new mothers get out of the house for even a short while, for their own benefit, and by relation, their baby's.

I've done that. With ten puppies that I was bottle feeding, at that.

Your right. My examples have been more about parenting than society. Here are some links to articles that can articulate it better than I can.
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr..._friendly.html

http://www.attachmentparenting.org/artdetached.shtml

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...ty/sweden.html

http://www.childfriendly.org/index.html

I also don't believe that I go out in public looking for anything that may be deemed child unfriendly. I obviously notice such things because when I am out and because my daughter is with me.

ISUKappa---- thanks for sharing your story. It sounds like you did everything right, and I applaud you for self-educating and seeking assistance rather than just giving up. Did you ever have a thyroid panel done while you were pregnant? You can ask for one at your yearly physical if you think that might be the case. If you have some sort of hormonal imbalance it may be possible to treat and successfully breastfeed future children. :)

No way. Not only will a new mom go nuts, but the germ thing doesn't really make sense. Most babies are born in hospitals and exposed to who knows how many germs. Well baby checkups usually begin right away and you have no idea what is lurking at a pediatricians office:eek:

And that first bit of colostrum and subsequent mature milk can do some amazing things for baby.http://www.lalecheleague.org/FAQ/colostrum.html

Puppies (no matter how many) do not equal human baby. If for no other reason then if you need to run to the store for milk and paper towels and clorox, it's perfectly legal and acceptable to leave puppies at home in a kennel. DCFS would not approve of you leaving your baby at home in a kennel. When you just gave birth, it's major work to pack up a baby and diaper bag and tote them to the car, into the store, out of the store, and back into the house....but if it's your only choice to get out of the house, you do it anyway. My daughter and I were out running errands when she was 4 days old. She is perfectly healthy.

Some parents, please. (Okay, too many parents will probably work, too.) There are many of us who do not laugh it off and who don't appreciate it when other parents do.

Okay, as long as this thread has devolved into pet peeves about other people's parenting styles, here's mine: bringing four- or five-year olds to late showings of movies with violence, "mature themes" or the like. Like the five-year-old who sat in front of me at a 9:30 pm showing of "The Two Towers." Do these kids not have bedtimes? Are their parents just oblivious to the concept of age appropriateness? It just boggles my mind.

And thanks, McDonald's for including "Pirates of the Caribbean" toys in Happy Meals. Yeah, my five-year-old needs to have nightmares from that.

Thanks, I feel better now.

Bully for you. Were you able to leave your house? And if you did, did you pack up those ten puppies, with food to feed them all, plus extra towels, etc.. if they made a mess while you were out and carry around the kennel with all those puppies in it everywhere you go.

I'm not trying to start a pissing war or diminish your experience, but you cannot equate caring for 10 puppies to caring for a newborn. I only used a pet in my example because that's something most people can relate to. Babies are extremely needy and not always easy to care for, especially for their first 6-12 weeks. They take a very large toll on your physical and mental health, not to mention the fact that women's hormones are trying to go from Pregnancy level back to normal level, which can take a few months. To suggest that mothers simply stay in the house for the first 3-4 weeks after the baby is born is ridiculous.

FWIW, I don't think every person is suited to have babies. I can definitely respect those who have made the decision to have a child-free life.