That's really not something anyone really disagrees with. I think what we're actually discussing here is that many activities which are in no way "high risk" are forbidden because if taken to the nth degree, they could be high risk. It seems the insurance companies/HQs have decided that individual chapters should not have at their discretion the decision as to how much is too much, or at the very least, HQ will lay out certain rules and enforce them as situations are brought to their attention so that they can at least claim plausible deniability.

Essentially you're right, but there are a lot of ambiguities in your statement.

OK, since you have no experience with hazing at all, how can you say that the guys who stuck it out weren't there for the wrong reasons?

I find it hard to believe that all the guys that left were in it for the "wrong reasons". Maybe they had more self-resepect than the other guys did and decided to walk away rather than being humiliated or possibly put in harm's way. Did you ever think of it that way?

For me, membership did mean a lot to me, and I was so excited when it came time for my initiaton, but I would not degrade myself and do things I otherwise would not to just to gain membership. I have more self-resepect than that. That doesn't mean I was just pledging a sorority for the parties and mixers with fraternity boys or any other "wrong reasons" to want to be a part of greek life.

I don't mean to sound like a total tool here, but who would want to rush a dry house? College age guys are going to drink, to say otherwise is just dumb. I would rather have my brothers drink at the house and stay at the hosue then to drink somewhere off campus and then have to somehow get back home.

I think the term "hazing" is really throwing a lot of people off here. My definition of hazing is probably different than yours, or the other persons.

You're probably right.

I'm thinking more of the hazing t hat I saw on my campus w/ the fraternity guys. One group in particular dressed their pledges up as cheerleaders, got them so drunk they could barely stand up, and I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I think campus police somehow found them in a dumpster....

At the same time, if active members of a GLO were yelling at the pledges (a 'la Sorority or Fraternity Life shows) I wouldn't put up with that either. What's the point of that really? I have better things to do with my time than be treated like a 5 yr old.

I do not think we need to separate men from women on hazing. It is what it is. We may, however, need new words?

When I was a newer volunteer for my sorority, I often wondered how there could be two definitions of hazing--one for men, and one for women. This may seem like a matter of semantics, but the reality is, there is really only one definition of hazing and it comes from our insurance and legal systems (understanding of course that it varies from state to state.) Hazing is hazing....and most of us know what kinds of activities fit the definition. And the definition is pretty broad, and could include many things.

From FIPG: No chapter, colony, student or alumnus shall conduct nor condone hazing activities. Hazing activities are defined as:
"Any action taken or situation created, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with academic achievement, fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution or applicable state law."

So--I began to use the term 'unhealthy traditions' to define those things that in their purest form really weren't hazing but that had the potential to be if twisted or for which there may be better ways to achieve the same objective. Examples would be things like interviews, scavenger hunts, wearing the same thing, not talking to boys/girls etc. Hazing or unhealthy traditions--didn't matter I was going to encourage the chapter to do something else.

The thing is--no matter what you call it and even if you think its going overboard, if your campus thinks it is hazing then it probably shouldn't be done in order to protect your organization. If your inter/national org thinks its hazing, it probaby shouldn't be done. As someone else pointed out, when you take your oath or vow, you agree to follow the rules of the org. My advice (not that anyone asked) is if you don't like the rules and want to see changes in your favor--then talk to campus officials, other Greeks and your inter/national officers and present them with the FIPG policy, laws or other information and ask the questions before you just do what you want. Its true you probably wouldn't get closed down for making new members collect signatures, sing to actives on campus or wearing all the same thing ridiculous outfit--by why take the chance?

U. of Minnesota & FarmHouse Suspend FH Chapter; Purdue Suspends Delta Chi

Good advice, Heather17; looks like the FarmHouse chapter at the U. of Minnesota didn't follow it -- and got suspended by the school and by its national HQ. See the university's March 29 '06 news release:

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=rele...ID=35479&-Find

Edited to add: And a few days ago it was announced that the Delta Chi chapter at Purdue has ben suspended for hazing. See

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.a...75827&nav=0Rce

Knowing that we all agree that there will probably never be a "totally" dry house (someone's gonna have a bottle in his/her room), some chapters that have gone "dry" to the extent of no alcohol at parties in the chapter house and no alcohol in common areas, report increases in size of the chapter, better recruitment, a more plesant living experience and much less damage to facilities.

There are also some who report numbers going down.

I suspect it depends on the culture of your particular chapter and campus.

ETA, remember that a "dry house" doesn't mean that the chapter can't have alcohol at parties, it just means that those "official" parties are held at a third party vendor. Of course some chapters will have parties at a brothers house or apartment, but that pretty well negates the lessening of liability.

Exactly. Phi Delt is a "dry house" fraternity and they are, at least in most places in the South, all badasses.

`

Yale's Dean of Student Affairs is quoted as saying, "My suspicion is that the national fraternities are trying to minimize their liabilities." The quote is from an article in the March 31 '06 Yalie Daily:

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32424

The article also mentions the Balanced Man, Men of Principle, and True Gentlemen programs of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Beta Theta Pi, and Sigma Alpha Epsilon, along with quotes from members of Yale chapters of Sigma Chi and Alpha Epsilon PI.

There are also interesting statements from an older alumnus who recalls Yale fraternity life about 50 years ago.

Personally I don't think the financial risk is the only reason we discuss hazing, but it's certainly a big reason.

WOW, a True Academian.

Said a Mouthful of CockCaa!

What is She trying to say? Something that many of Us have not known for a long time? DAH!

Of Course We as Social Greek Letter Organizations are trying to get things changed for the betterment of Us All.

Is She saying anything New? No.

Is what She is saying True, well, Yes.

My goodness, there are going to be rogue Chapters out there as We all see and want to try to correct it amongst ourselves.

Lady, get with the times. Please.

Our hazing was for positive. It was never used as punishment. Hell week brought us closer together than we had ever been throughout pledgeship. It taught us persistence and determination throughout, telling us never to quit. Pledging was the funnest thing I never want to do again!

also in name, Phi Gam and Phi Delt are both dry houses, but that statement is ridiculous.

I would have never pledged a dry house.

Interesting stuff. Perhaps a current or former national officer could inform us here. How difficult would it be for an organization to purchase liability insurance if it did not have extremely strong anti-hazing policies and programming?

I can see the benefit on one side, but on the other side, the question needs to be asked -- do we cause more harm than good in forcing hazing activities underground? That is to say, if chapters that haze (that chapter will actually haze is a foregone conclusion), is it better to let them do it out in the open? Or is it more likely that things might escalate when they are done behind closed doors, out in the middle of nowhere, etc. Do we actually put lives at risk when we force hospitals to report any suspicion of hazing to the authorities? Alcohol abuse? I think some of our organization's policies as well as some local and state laws are extremely short-sighted in these regards.

The Truth of this can come so close to home.

We on GC see it every day, not just guys but shes.

We as GLOs profess anti hazing, but it still happens!:(

These are The Chapters when caught, should be delt with asap if accusations proved to be true. "Proved To Be True"! That is the question!:)

There are already numerous (inter)national fraternities that can't buy liability insurance even with strong non-hazing policies.

They have banded together and formed an organization that basically self insures the organizations.

They don't have the deep pockets of an insurance company, and a few large findings against them could bankrupt the organization -- and some or all of the fraternities.