Originally Posted by Hartofsec (Post 2204264)

Remedies under educational law are not necessarily those one might expect in a civil court (monetary damages, for instance). A complaint filed with FPCO, and found to have merit, could result in some repercussions for the district (and therefore the employee).

Nonetheless, if I called the guidance counselor at my local high school, explained that I am an XYZ alum and would like some info on a list of female seniors there, I would fully expect her to hang up.

To her credit, since that would eliminate the need for any legal guidance, one way or another. We live in a litigious society.

The academic info necessary for membership perusal would appear on the transcript that was submitted officially to the school of application, and then unofficially with the rec packet -- both with the consent and knowledge of the PNM.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby (Post 2204282)

I think this is what I take issue with...I really don't believe that there is that much difference between a good candidate for Kappa and a good candidate for DPhiE and a good candidate for Phi Mu, and so on.

Now, obviously I am not privy to MS, so maybe that's not the case, and each group values something different, but my general sense is that the vast, vast majority of women who participate in FR meet the requirements of all NPC groups, save for the obvious grade risks and criminal pasts.

Originally Posted by adpiucf (Post 2204284)

Educational law? I believe you mean administrative law. Yes, FERPA claims go to an administrative body to adjudicate whether a school has committed a violation. Again, the penalty is loss of federal funding for the school.

A guidance counselor penalized in return is not liable. In fact, she can file a lawsuit. The school cannot seek indemnity or contribution in a against the guidance counselor in an administrative proceeding for a FERPA violation. They can't make the guidance counselor pay to replace fedearl funds or state that is her fault or have her take the blame.

Thus, you are incorrect. A guidance counselor has no liability for a FERPA violation in an administrative hearing and any attempt at retaliation for the school's FERPA violation is going to land the school, the school district, and the state in a lawsuit for wrongful termination.

The only repercussions are to the school. Your original argument asserted that the counselor would be open to liability. You are now attempting to change your hypothetical to talk of nebulous "repercussions" for the guidance counselor because you are determined to be right. You're wrong.

Originally Posted by adpiucf (Post 2204284)

You are now attempting to change your hypothetical to talk of nebulous "repercussions" for the guidance counselor because you are determined to be right. You're wrong.

Originally Posted by AnchorAlumna (Post 2204281)

I have been told that this is necessary to maintain single sex status, according to federal requirements and/or guidelines.

If so, then anyone insisting that their sorority or chapter doesn't "do" recs or doesn't have to consider them may be a) not following the requirements of their group b)jeopardizing the group's single sex status.

Maybe I have this wrong?

Originally Posted by Hartofsec (Post 2204292)

Oh keep your shorts on. :) I'll change "educational" law to "administrative" law, and "liability" to "expose one's district to potential repercussions" if you like.



I'm really not that invested in being correct about the participation of the high school guidance counselor -- it doesn't seem necessary if the info needed for recruitment is on the transcript. Subjective opinions, particularly negative judgements or predictions made by the guidance counselor, may be another matter.

I think you may just be determined to split hairs and wave around a law degree. ;)

Which might be handy for your guidance counselor friends in the event sorority alums come calling and ask for information on a list of female seniors (unsolicited by the female seniors, and without their knowledge or consent).
.

Originally Posted by MaryPoppins (Post 2204170)

We have seen women coming through at Ole Miss with several DUIs on their records. Sometimes those are on the letters of reference and sometimes not.

Originally Posted by adpiucf (Post 2204298)

You may not be invested in being correct, but you sure act like it. You shouldn't throw around terms and laws and procedures if you don't have even a layman's understanding of them. And there's no need to launch into personal attacks.

Originally Posted by Cheerio (Post 2204301)

In one rec I wrote, for a woman rushing a Midwestern university, I included newspaper articles concerning her underage drinking bust (large party=big news here) the summer prior to her beginning college. She was turned away from my group, but joined another.

Originally Posted by DubaiSis (Post 2204192)

I don't think there IS a difference. That's why us yankees think the whole process is just silly. And you can't use number of rushees or number of chapters as a reason. Most of the Big 10 is comparable or larger in number of rushees, although in general there are more chapters at the Big 10 schools so it's spread out a little more. You also can't use age of the chapters as a reason because most of the oldest chapters are Midwestern or Northern. I think the southern chapters didn't really kick off until the 20th century for some obvious reasons.

I can accept that there is a fear of no longer relying on recommendations, but, just as RFM didn't kill sororities, eliminating this tedious step also wouldn't. But that being said, I still think there IS a role for alumnae. I just don't think paperwork is where it's at.

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp (Post 2204306)

This lawyer disagrees with any reading of FERPA that limits its application to the sharing of written records. I have written FERPA releases for a major university. If a school employee's "knowledge of that student" is based on the fact that she gets to see the student's academic/disciplinary records in the course of her work, then FERPA applies to her "knowledge" and the personal opinion resulting therefrom. For example, if in the course of my work as a guidance counselor (or teacher or principal), I see that Suzy was internally reprimanded for cheating junior year, it is both unethical and a FERPA violation for me to then tell others orally, "Suzy is untrustworthy, don't bid her." There doesn't have to be any written record shared, or any mental health guidance relationship with Suzy, for that rule to kick in. If you only know she's untrustworthy because you were allowed to see her confidential records, you have to keep it to yourself.

Whether someone would actually be sued, in practice, is a different question. Both HIPAA and FERPA are violated every day around family dinner tables, and that's never going to lead to a lawsuit. But I think it is wrong to violate this rule in the recruitment context whether a lawsuit is likely or not. If I'm counsel to the school, I want everyone keeping confidential information inside the institution, period. The "Suzy is untrustworthy" example above would be a firing offense at the university where I've worked.

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp (Post 2204306)

If a school employee's "knowledge of that student" is based on the fact that she gets to see the student's academic/disciplinary records in the course of her work, then FERPA applies to her "knowledge" and the personal opinion resulting therefrom. For example, if in the course of my work as a guidance counselor (or teacher or principal), I see that Suzy was internally reprimanded for cheating junior year, it is both unethical and a FERPA violation for me to then tell others orally, "Suzy is untrustworthy, don't bid her." There doesn't have to be any written record shared, or any mental health guidance relationship with Suzy, for that rule to kick in. If you only know she's untrustworthy because you were allowed to see her confidential records, you have to keep it to yourself.

Originally Posted by Cheerio (Post 2204301)

In one rec I wrote, for a woman rushing a Midwestern university, I included newspaper articles concerning her underage drinking bust...

Originally Posted by amIblue? (Post 2204303)

And I would simply not send a rec instead of doing this.