Wow. Where does one begin?

Condescending. Unfamiliar. Those are a couple of the adjectives that come to mind when reading this post.

You obviously haven't been a member of GC. The majority of us are alumns of our respective fraternities and sororities. Many of us are/have been chapter advisors to both established chapters and colonies. Many of us have either volunteered for our inter/national groups or have worked for our groups.

We understand the issues going on at FGCU. Really, we do. What it boils down to is this: Some guys didn't like the current fraternities. Did they go as a group to the Greek Life Office and say this, explaining their issues and their request to look for a new fraternity? Or, did they form a new group on their own, look around for a fraternity, liked Kappa Sigma, and contacted them? (From some earlier posts, that's the way it sounds.) Kappa Sigma talked to them, liked what they saw, and said "We'd love to have you guys as a group."

Did Kappa Sigma or the young men starting the group ever look/ask about FGCU's expansion policies before this all started? If not, that was poor planning and you got blindsided by a rule that you should have checked into.
If yes, then you saw the rule that says that unrecognized colonies/expansions could not be recognized for 5 years and decided, "To hell with it. We'll do it anyway." Either way, there is an established rule that is non-discriminatory because it does apply to any Greek organization. If they were applying it to you, and then (for example) Phi Lambda Chi is acccepted even though they had a non-recognized expansion, I can guarrantee you that you would have my full support.

I keep hearing that you have all the NIC Inter/National Offices supporting you. Well, then, they need to check the Expansion Resolution from the NIC. Especially the last section:

"To provide students with context for the benefits and lessons of expansion, the members of the Conference agree to:

*Educate their undergraduate chapters, the Interfraternity Council leaders and interested alumni about the overall benefits and responsibilities of expansion and to foster ongoing support for the growth of the fraternity movement;
*Offer only those statements and promises in expansion discussions which accurately reflect capabilities;
*Encourage the highest academic, social, and moral standards among all interested students in all expansion endeavors;
*Make every reasonable attempt to coordinate expansion efforts with the administration and with the Interfraternity Council of colleges and universities at which they are pursuing expansion opportunities;
*Recognize that the size of a member fraternity is not indicative of that member fraternity's ability to administer an expansion project at an institution;
*Respect the right of any organized collegiate group to seek a member fraternity of its choice in an effort to affiliate with that general fraternity; and
*Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

^^ See that one: "Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status." Before, not during, not after. Before.
Plain and simple.

No one here is against expansion or for discrimination. We are for properly done expansions and following rules.

And, let me say again, I really don't understand why you want support from Inter/National Offices of an Organization that you choose not to be a member.

Now, you know what happens when you assume.

Healy v James?

And can you provide a cite for any case holding that public colleges and universities must recognize Greek life, because I know of no such cases. Public institutions cannot prohibit membership in Greek organizations, and if Greek life is recognized, then the same rules must apply to all GLOs, but I know of no case saying that Greek life must be recognized. (Which is irrelevant here anyway, since FGCU does recognize Greek life.)

Are you suggesting that when First Amendment rights are at issue, various jurisdictions can apply strict scrutiny standards other than the standards adopted by the Supreme Court of the United States? Or are you just noting that states may have greater protections than those afforded by the First Amendment?

From what I can see, you are grossly overstating an equal protection analysis. If you've read the cases, you know that the expressive association of which you speak is the right to associate for the purposes protected by the First Amendment: speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion.

FGCU clearly does not appear to dicriminate against Greek-letter organizations on these grounds -- the existence of fraternities and sororities at the school puts that argument to rest. Nor is Kappa Sigma being "discriminated" against because of any activity protected by the First Amendment. It's not a matter, say, of Kappa Sigma requiring a belief in God, while the school says that recognized organizations cannot exclude students on the basis of religion. Nope, from what I've seen, the Kappa Sigma colony is not being recognized because it failed/refused to follow the procedures that apply to all fraternities for colonization and recogniztion.

FGCU did provide the Kappa Sigma colony with the same liberties it provided other fraternities -- or at least it provided it with the opportunity for those liberties. If the colony is being deprived of those liberties, it appears to be due to the colony's own choices, not discrimination by FGCU. Doesn't sound like a promising equal protection or First Amendment case to me.

Yep. I was indeed there once. But these days I'm a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar with 20+ years of practice in constitutional law under my belt. How about you?

I went back to your 1st post and realized that I somehow skipped the part where you told me to be educated and not opinionated. Again, let me point out the last part of NIC's Expansion Resolution: *Request approval of the appropriate college or university official before granting colony status."

I suggest that before you tell someone else to "try to be educated", you educate yourself on the policies of an organization whose members you are trying to convince to support you.

Lol I love how the rules only apply to them when it is convenient. They left NIC, because they didn't agree with it's rules and policies. Now they are trying to use same rules and policies to their advantage.

I'm glad I'm having a slow day.

I'm well aware they're two seperate issues. It was your long post that seemed to confuse and conflate them.

As for the First Amendment, I wasn't confusing anything. Did you miss that when I gave the list of rights, I specifically pput them in the context of "expressive association"? I was merely quoting SCOTUS as to what that means:

Our decisions have referred to constitutionally protected "freedom of association" in two distinct senses. In one line of decisions, the Court has concluded that choices to enter into and maintain certain intimate human relationships must be secured against undue intrusion by the State because of the role of such relationships in safeguarding the individual freedom that is central to our constitutional scheme. In this respect, freedom of association receives protection as a fundamental element of personal liberty. In another set of decisions, the Court has recognized a right to associate for the purpose of engaging in those activities protected by the First Amendment -- speech, assembly, petition for the redress of grievances, and the exercise of religion. The Constitution guarantees freedom of association of this kind as an indispensable means of preserving other individual liberties.

Roberts v. United States Jaycees, 468 U.S. 609, 617-618 (1984) (emphasis added).

You do understand that Healy had to do with political speech? (Meanwhile, the BSA case involved religion and whether the BSA could limit membership to those who believe in God.) See my cite to Roberts above.

I thought it was recognition you want, not just use of facilities.

The Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the school from treating similarly situated entities differently. Since nothing you have said has shown me that the Kappa Sig colony is similarly situated to the IFC chapters that actually followed the procedure for recognition, it still looks like you're overstating things to me.

But I'll give you this: you're managing to do it in a particularly condescending and arrogant way. Props for that. Perhaps you're on the right track after all and I just can't see it for all the hubris.

KSigAdvisor, you are a fucking idiot.

No school has to grant ANY group recognition. The only thing that freedom of assocation protects is the right of students to join any group - recognized or unrecognized - without fear of harassment/suspension/expulsion.

As a matter of fact, your argument is really AGAINST freedom of association - as you want to "force" FGCU and its students to accept an organization that they have shown, in a vote, that they do not want. Even if FGCU had approved you, the IFC could still vote you down.

You don't have a leg to stand on as far as equal protection until another fraternity comes in and the school recognizes them immediately.

DKE dealt with things like this for a long time, at many schools, and without the whining. I suggest you google them and learn something.

May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot. (And longwinded, too.)

MC, 33girl, and LaneSig FTMFW

Seriously? You are now comparing an unrecognized Kappa Sigma colony to the struggle of African Americans and women to get their civil rights. Wow. Just, wow.

I can assure you that Sigma Chi does not just "roll over and go home" when we face a problem.

What we do is make sure we know the atmosphere of the campus. We make sure that we have the full cooperation of the administration before anything happens. We make sure that all the "t"s are crossed and the "i"s dotted. That way, there is no problem.

You requested to come on and colonize in 2008? Is this Kappa Sigma the organization or the group that became Kappa Sigma?

2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules.

Which is it?

BTW - 33girl- I wish we were back in college. I would definately serenade you with "The Sweetheart of Sigma Chi" song on ASA's front porch.

I must say that I am glad you are having a slow day. This thread has been fun to lurk in- although I'll take the "you're just young" part as a complement.

Because it just had to be said again.

"2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules." LaneSig

from what i hear, it was a combination of the two.

So, you did know about the rule, but went ahead and did it anyway.

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

^^^ You really are an idiot. <---directed at KSigAdvisor

If you really feel your rights have been violated, take it up with the courts. I'm sure MC will represent you, once his mind is up and running again :rolleyes:

BTW -- if you're an undergrad, how are you an advisor?

So you must be really pissed at yourself
You have the same rights, and have to follow the same rules as everybody else.
Actually they don't. Freedom of association is not the same as saying that if an organization asks for something, it has to be granted. It just means that an individual can't be punished for who they associate with, or groups they join.

Actually, I'm sure every organization needs some kind of recognition process they have to go through. Since fraternities are by their very nature discriminatory, IFC has to approve, instead of the office of student involvement who would normally be the case.

It's called a student government. And there is nothing to say that people can not join Kappa Sigma, or will get punished for it.
You are calling all of us idiots, yet you don't know the difference between Communism and Fascism/Nazism? Newsflash, but Hitler hated the Communists .

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by somebody before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

So you say you have the right to call somebody an idiot, because members of their group that they might not even know voted against you? Even if that was true, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia is not at FGCU or even in NIC.

You are an idiot. That is like saying that putting people in jail because they broke the law is discrimination.

:) :) :) You have NO idea how much I needed that today. Missing the Sigma Chi boys badly...

And to segue, I have to say that everything LaneSig says is true. Sigma Chi is attempting to return to my campus and they are doing an AMAZING amount of homework as far as making sure the campus is ready for it, enlisting alumni, telling alumni in no uncertain terms what they're signing on for, getting their name out to the campus Greek community etc etc.

BTW, KSig"Advisor" (because I hope to hell you really are not this chapter's advisor), I haven't had a boy call me a stupid drunk so much in a long time. It's kind of giving me a lady boner.