Since the minute he was elected, Obama has been privvy to a lot more information than he had before. The transition team began working almost immediately. I'd feel quite certain that he has been given all kinds of new info at this stage of the game.

Sure, but I don't think it was new information about community service and I think if the change was simply a reaction to the economic downturn, it could have been changed before the election.

I personally wouldn't characterize this change as a flip flop because I think it makes sense to reserve that distinction for stands that actually reverse themselves. (First you say you'll use public financing, but then when you see how much money you can raise, you decide not to go with public financing = flip flop. It was a one or the other choice and you changed your position.)

Here Obama has simply modified from one form of supporting community service to another. He backed off making it a requirement while still retaining it as a goal. If he ends up vetoing community service legislation, then he's flip flopped, IMO.

Factcheck.org just sent me this note which I think partial covers some of this thread:
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec..._national.html

^^^Broun's a loon. I loved this last night: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/in...ama-and-hitler

The last thing I would want is for any of my loved ones in hospitals or nursing homes to be subjected to some kid doing "forced" community service.

Just asking, what makes you say that?

No one can be forced to do anything. If they want to get money to go to college, then have to have X amount of community service...

I'd rather these kids do community service to see what real life is like than to say what they said to my husband after they found out how long they have to go to school to become a physician--"I ain't goin' to school that long!!!"

Then I equate it to someone who has zero interest in the military enlisting so they can get money for college. I don't approve of that program either. You should be in the military because you want to serve your country, not to get something from it and gritting your teeth the whole time. That isn't how the GI Bill was supposed to work. I say the same about community service. Do it because you truly want to, not because you're checking it off on a resume or to get $$ for college. That isn't "service" from my vantage point.

I understand why you would want a person to want to do what they're doing, but that is not entirely realistic.

I have no problem with someone enlisting just so they can get an education. They can grit their teeth through their military service as long as they do their job well and dont cause any problems (that includes having a bad attitude).

I think that suggesting that young people should only do community service because they want to is sending the wrong message. In life we all have to do things that we don't want to. As you grow up you realize that you cannot always do what you want and get what you want in life.

That's like an employer saying that an employee should complete detailed weekly reports because they want to and not because they want to get a promotion or a check at the end of the week. Incentive motivates people. That is the whole point behind paying college students for community service. People do what is necessary as a means to an end. The goal is to get $4,000 for school and the way to get it is to serve your community. A lot of the choices young people will make in the real world will be reflective of this situation. In life young people will want things. Getting these things will be their goals. Young people need to learn that nothing will be handed to them. If you want to achieve your goals then you have to make a plan and execute that plan. Said plan will most likely include many things that the person will not want to do, but the person will have to do them as a means to achieve the goal. That is how life works.

Frankly, I think college-aged people should understand this (and use this to their advantage) and middle school and high school students should be learning this. The grade school students would come out of highschool with a healthy respect for community service and would go into college being rewarded for the service they do.

This is why we don't put you in charge of the military, since if the US was a volunteer only force without the GI bill, we wouldn't have nearly the number of soldiers required to "protect America's interests" around the world.

Your logic is faulty. Completing weekly reports on your job is something you have to do FOR YOUR JOB. Obviously if you don't do your job you don't get paid. If I do community service, my employer isn't going to reward me in any way - because it has NOTHING to do with my job. Why should a student studying theater have to volunteer at a nursing home? It has nothing to do with their career path.

Oh, and if you pay someone for it, IT'S NOT SERVICE.

If we weren't so insistent on remaining the world's policeman that wouldn't be a problem. But that is another thread.

I think we're defining service differently based on 33Girl's comment that if you pay someone, it's not service.

Military service is a type of service and they are paid. The kind of program I envisioned would be like that... service to either the military or the community in a structured way, with pay (much like Israel does).

I don't understand what is faulty about it. The same way that completing weekly reports is something you have to do for your job completing community service hours is something you have to do to get the $4,000. Obviously, if you don't do your service you dont get the money.
There are employers that reward employees for doing community service. I never said the two things were related. I used it as an analogy not to show correlation between the two.

A student studying theater would not necessarily have to volunteer at a nursing home. They could volunteer at a theater/performing arts based after school program for youth. Or they could volunteer to put together a play for the people at a nursing home. Or they could volunteer to put on a play with an after school program for youth and have the youth do the play for the people at the nursing home. Community service always relates to a person's career.

From Dictionary.Com:
community service

noun1. a service that is performed for the benefit of the public or its institutions
community service

n.

1. Services volunteered by individuals or an organization to benefit a community or its institutions.

It is still service even if you are paid to do it. By either definition a person who gives a service for the benefit of the community is doing community service. Even if you take the second definition which says that the person must do it voluntarily this would still be considered community service since it is not mandatory for the college students. Most community service organizations provide some type of incentive or reward for their volunteers if they can. Red Cross gives away stuff all the time. Their give aways are the same thing as this $4,000. It is a thank you for helping out.

No, it doesn't. I was a Candy Striper in the pediatrics ward and that has NOTHING to do w/ what I'm doing now, nor did it have anything to do w/ any of my jobs ever. And I'll say the same thing about this I say about school choice - the same breadth of opportunities do not exist everywhere. The kids in the rural and poorer areas are going to have very limited options, just like with school choice.

33girl,

Help me understand where you are coming from, are you saying if someone is not passionate or committed to serve either in the community or military in what way ever, then they should not have to serve or be made to serve or be told to do this for any amount of money?

I am wondering, though, how else could young people consider life's options besides being out there practically nothing, expecting everything. And we are NOT talking about the kids who have legal jobs, like working in a fast food place, etc. We are talking about all those myspace/messageboard children cyberbulling an unsuspecting newbies and lying about who they really are online... We are talking about gang-bangers, car choppers, or tick-tock gun shot bang spinner wheel chair stealers... What about those kids whose only concepts about doing right by people is something like digital exams? :rolleyes: LOL... :)