There are a lot of ways to "earn" your letters without being hazed.

It's not necessary to participate in illegal activities to be proud of what you are.

Hazing doesn't need to include pledges being beaten, but it shouldn't just be stupid little projects and ice breakers the whole time. I agree that you have to "EARN YOUR LETTERS." If all I had to do was sew and sing songs to get into a sorority, then there wouldn't have been any thrill in choosing to join in the first place. You can do those types of things with any of your friends.

I carefully read what EVERYONE had to say before I decided to speak my mind. So here's the disclaimer: My organization does not haze nor haveI been hazed in any way. I would go through my new member process again if I had to. Now having said that, I ask this REALLY what is hazing?

As an undergrauate, I dormed with some ladies that belonged to another GLO and there was always a room filled with arts and crafts. The pledges mad cute little name tags adorned with glitter and hung them from our door every week. Is that hazing?

Standing up in a room full of sisters and greeting them by name one by one... is that hazing?

I've also heard of pledges interviewing active members of the chapter, and being quizzed on the answers later. The interviews I don't think are bad. The quizzes... uncomfortable, but is that hazing?

Is calling some one your "BIG" hazing? Do you know that some orgs on my campus couldn't refer to their Bigs as such in fear that they would be brought up on charges of hazing. It would appear that calling someone a "big" or "little" denotes superiority/ inferiority. Guess I should walk into work and call my manager "buddy" cuz other wise, i'm gettin hazed at work!

My org, does not PLEDGE. That's right, it's a new member process. Because the word in itself is a form of hazing.

Let me ask you this, do youthink that in the effort to protect such young minds we have lost ours? I mean I pledged to a flag every morning in my younger years at school was that being hazed? I had pop quizzes all the time to make sure I knew my class work, was that being hazed?

SCAVENGER HUNTS ... that's hazing too? We are really taking all the fun out of pledging and that's what it is pleding. You are pledging yourself to an organization. And you should develop certain skills in this process so that youcan be an asset when you "cross" into the greek world. We are tyring to be so PC with everything we are turning our precious organizations into clubs and at the same time we are throwing away sacred traditions.

Just because I have a paddle doesn't mean someone hit me with one. And now, we can't even post pics online holding them.

On the other hand: it is hazing to give someone a pledge name that is insulting. It is hazing to touch the pledges if it's not to give them hug or a handshake. Shame on you if you've ever used profane language around them, force them to injest anything, or make them feel like they aren't good enough.

Pledging is supposed to be fun Paddles, pledgenames and all. Get the jerks and leave the little guys alone:mad:

Congratulations on one of the finest posts I have ever seen on GreekChat!

Thank You for your insight and input.

Good post.


I do think there is a big difference between sorrorities and fraternities as far as "hazing", and how much & what type is neccesary.

Well thank you Tom. :)

You are more than very welcome!:cool:

Kuddos are due where they are due!:)

What's the difference between sororities and fraternities as far as "hazing" (how much and what type is "necessary")?

Theoretically, fraternities do more physical hazing and sororities do more mental hazing, but I think that's a crock, personally.

Sorority hazing (and girls hazing in general) has always seemed more.. mean to me. Caveat: I've never personally seen or experienced hazing in a sorority. I've seen some of the guys though and one fraternity did a fake scavenger hunt followed by the pledges getting doused in water and hit with water balloons. Some make them drink and such. But they never seem angry or hateful in the same way that girls seem to be.

This was just something I'd thought about

/This post does not approve hazing in any form.

After the disclaimer and example you gave, you still stuck with your assertation that sorority hazing (in general) seemed meaner? :confused:

I also disagree with that. Both do a combination of both.

But, I think people's generalizations about sorority versus fraternity hazing are based on what they perceive to be "the rule" (based on personal observation or something more in depth) versus what they perceive to be "exceptions to the rule."

I would say that if someone's telling you every day that you're ugly and not worth anything, that's way meaner than getting hit w/ a water balloon (and going home and drying yourself off and forgetting about it).

When my little sister's class was pledging, I remember one of the girls in that new member class telling me about how her best friend was pledging a sorority at her school and that her friend was complaining that she was always sore because the sisters made them do ridiculous amounts of push ups and sit ups as punishment. The girl started to get scared that we were going to make them do push ups as well. That was the first and so far only time in my life when I have heard of sororities ever doing anything physical.

This is your illustration and not the illustration provided by the poster I quoted. ;)

But, plenty of fraternity men can tell you of how they were called ugly (for being too pale, too dark, too skinny, blah blah blah), demeaned, or called worthless while they were pledging. Their masculinity and/or sexuality was questioned while being pledged or they were told to "prove" how much of a man they are by being willing to objectify women.

Many of these men may not perceive it or articulate it in the same way that women perceive and articulate their experiences, partially because of gendered context and socialized communication differences, but I think there's little qualitative or quantitative difference.

I've "seen and heard" it all regarding women and men pledging.

I didn't give an example of sorority hazing. To me, the stuff guys tend to do isn't MEAN. Water balloons are (while still hazing) not a big deal to me. I wouldn't throw a fuss if it happened to me.

Everything I've heard about sorority hazing suggests a different attitude on the part of the hazers. Male hazers don't seem to be angry at the pledges even if they yell. There's not the same amount of emotion involved. Female hazers act like they hate the pledges and are disgusted by them.

Perhaps it's just behavioral differences. But its simply my unoffical observation and opinion.

/your results may vary

I don't think it's the pledges that the women actually hate. They're taking their revenge for what was done to them. And girls tend to hold grudges, where guys just get over it. To quote one of the most famous hazing scenes ever from a movie: "I did it when I was a freshman, and you'll do it when you're seniors, but you're doing great. Now fry like bacon, you little freshman piggies. Fry!"

Exactly! And I just meant there seems to be so much real feeling in it. LIke they really want you to suffer.

As my friends and I say: Girls are mean. Guys will fight and get over it, girls work at bringing you down until the day you die.

And while sometimes this has its good uses.. its generally a negative reaction.

Obviously since the chapters that haze so bad haven't died out yet, there are positives from hazing pledges. The frats and sororites that have difficult pledge periods are known on campus, its not a big secret who hazes and who doesn't. Still rushees sign their bids to the "hard" frats and sororities time and time again... and once the hazing starts, they don't quit. Because of this, I believe that hazing is not as big of a deal as most of you are making it. I've read a lot of the "anti-hazing" comments, and honestly, but if you have no experience with it, how can you judge whether it is effective or not? Same goes with the hazing groups, it isn't fair for you to judge the chapters that do not haze. It is a matter of choice for the fraternity or sorority to make amongst themselves. It is their risk, and their organization on the line, meaning there's no purpose in fighting about it.

You are absolutely right. Unfortunately in our presently pathetic and overly politically correct society, most people do not grasp the concept of having to work towards something. For a long time the long held American ideal of responsibility has been waning, and this is another example. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, people on this board and around the country still fail to accept the fact that the huge majority of "hazing" isn't making pledges eat disgusting things, harm themselves, betray their beliefs, or taking beatings. The large majority involves overcoming obstacles by working with people you are not comfortable with yet, thus building trust that can last a lifetime. It involves taking responsibility not only for yourself but also those with you, so that your actions effect everyone. Most "hazing" isn't to give the brothers some kicks, it is to allow for the continued strength of the organization. People will point out some guys saying that hazing ruined their lives, but I imagine for every one of those, you could find 10 alumni who say it was fun, productive, and self-esteem building. For those who do go through hazing, don't quit when it gets tough, the outcome isn't people with no self worth, but rather men of character who now have confidence and experience to build upon as they begin college life.

If "hazing" was and is stuff like calling names, water balloons or even a little PT, the anti-hazing laws would never haven been inacted.

Unfortunately, people and groups don't know when to stop, things get harder, things get out of hand and people get killed.

That has nothing to do with Politically Correct.

Then there's that pesky old insurance stuff that everyone would rather overlook because it's so unfair.

So, here's a great idea. Let's ignore all of the laws and rules. Let's forget about insurance and liability.

Haze away. Be sure everyone "earns" his or her badge.

Then, when someone gets injured or killed, you (and your chapter, and your nationals and maybe even your parents) can pay for those millions of dollars in damages for the rest of your lives. Literally.

You think student loans are hard to pay off?

That wouldn't happen to us, you say? We don't do all of that.

Read the other threads in his forum.

I agree.

Its kind of like your parents telling you: "Fine you can't handle no curfew, so now you're in at 9:00," after you do something stupid at midnight.

Or taking away the car or something.

The entire greek system is grounded because we couldn't handle it. Quite frankly I'm glad that our I-week is full of fun stuff and presents instead of hazing. I'm fairly certain that our founders didn't haze, so who gets to decide somewhere down the line that that's how pledges should "earn" it?

That's the crazy thing though. I once read part of an SK History book, I think it was on eBay and there's was pages that you could read. It totally talked about how in the early years, like the first 25, Alpha chapter would do things like a fake initiation. There's no way a fake initiation wouldn't be considered hazing by today's standards. And since it was so early on the founders probably knew about it, if not started it. It shocked me and made me wonder what else they did that would not fly today.

I'd be most interested in finding one of those books! However I do believe there's a difference between the stuff that's been taken away, such as scavenger hunts, and the stuff that is strictly hazing.

I'll again say I love that our Iweek is happy and not mean :)

I remember we begged the older sisters to have a scavanger hunt or something fun like that (my pledge sister Emily said, "I WANT TO BE HAZED!!" lol). Since all "hazing" is not allowed, instead during Inspo Week, the NM get a night with each grade - a sophomore night, a junior night, a senior night, and play games and etc.

Depends on the Hazing.

You're right, there are insurance concerns. Thankfully, my fraternity never made a habit out of telling our nationals or insurance co. everything we were involved in. It has everything to do with political correctness. Thats why regulations go beyond the physical. The current idea of hazing often includes anything that makes a pledge feel uncomfortable or stressed or embarassed. Its great that we protect these 18 year old boys from those things, because God knows they'll never in life face periods where they are uncomfortable, stressed or embarassed.

Which brings us back to the fact that if you do something against the rules or the law and something bad happens or you get caught, you're insurance will be cancelled, declared null and void and will not pay. Read the small print.

Political Correctness is a cop out. It is a nice pair of words to blame most of what people don't agree with and/or it is something to hind behind. The reason for the rules is that hazing has been taken way too far -- and like anything else, when that happens the response is often out of proportion to the "crime."

It is attitudes like, "not telling" your national organization and insurance company that not only causes loss of charter -- but higher insurance rates for the entire organization and the fraternity system as a whole.

As I said above, read the other threads in Risk Management.

No it's not. It's very true. Especially since some of the things that have been enacted - like the terminology changes that EVEN THE INCOMING FRESHMEN DON'T USE - do very, very little to change actual hazing.

I find it ridiculous that people are being initiated who don't know their group's history, have made little effort to know the active brothers or sisters, and who do the least amount possible and don't even understand the concept of wanting to do something to make their group better - but it is happening, because the hazing rules have gone too far. As I've said a million times HAZING AND PLEDGING ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Agreed wholeheartedly. There can still be pledging without hazing, and it should be a probationary as well as an educational period. There are probationary periods for everything else in life, so why not with a sorority? If you're on a sports team, you're not going to start in your first game ever. If you start at a new job, you won't receive benefits until 90 days after the start date to make sure you're going to stay there. Why should this be any different?

Of course there can be pledging without hazing and the two are certainly NOT the same thing.

I don't think that's the point of this thread, though -- which is "Hazing creates a sense of unity."

I'll also go on record again agreeing that the hazing laws have gone too far. I'll still stand by my beliefs of why that happened. Hazing went way too far and got totally out of control.

As for "Political Correctness," I did a Google search and here are some comments that underscore what I think about that. The comments are from Wikipedia -- not a source I generally even look at -- but they pretty much confirm to me what I've understood "Politically Correct" to be.

"Political correctness (also politically correct, P.C. or PC) is a term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense, particularly to the racial or cultural groups being described. The term is normally used in a pejorative or ironic sense, and is a frequent target for comedians and satirists.

The concept has been extended by conservative and some liberal (Hentoff 1992, Schlesinger 1998, Brandt 1992) commentators, particularly in the United States, but also increasingly in other countries, to describe what they see as a larger "left-wing political correctness movement" focused on censorship, multiculturalism, identity politics, social engineering, and influencing popular culture through venues such as music, film, literature, arts, and advertising.

Some liberal and progressive commentators, however, argue that the term "political correctness" was fabricated by United States conservatives around 1980 and defined as a way to reframe the political scene in the United States. They say that there never was a "Political Correctness movement" in the United States, and that many who use the term are attempting to distract attention from substantive debates over discrimination and unequal treatment based on race, class, and gender (Messer-Davidow 1993, 1994; Schultz 1993; Lauter 1995; Scatamburlo 1998; Glassner 1999)."


Bottom line of "PC" to me is that, while I don't really care whether it was started by Liberals or Conservatives, most of its usage has nothing to do with the stuff above, but that it has become a usefull and easy container into which anything with which you disagree can be thrown. It's an easy place to lump things. That's why I call it a "cop out."

How is a scavenger hunt a sacred tradition? Does that make kickball, Capture the Flag or Tug of War sacred, too? How does a scavenger hunt help you develop "certain skills" that will help you later on? I don't understand this line of reasoning.

If you look at when these organizations were founded, most will appear to have been founded on the ideals of "social, moral and mental improvement" of its membership. Paddles, scavenger hunts, "Big Brothers" and whatnot were frilly extras added later. Then people started swallowing goldfish, binge drinking as a condition of provisional membership and adopted Lord of the Flies governing mentalities. Then things went horribly awry.

That's the case here. Maybe the laws have gone too far and maybe young men and women need to learn to resist peer pressure more... but those things won't bring someone like Michael Carrington back. If someone acts like a child, his toys will be taken away, and it appears to me that the intern/national volunteers/officers are merely going back to basics.

At some point, as in politics, I have no doubt the pendulum will sway back in the other direction and this era of PC-ness will be behind us. Hopefully, the next generation of collegiate Greeks will have more common sense and committment to one another and there will be no more reports of pledges drinking themselves to death, being hit by cars in a game of chicken or the other myriad psychological and physical torture some of these fringe groups have put their members through-- things that have caused a PR nightmare for those of us who do follow the rules.

you seem like a glass is half empty person.

My point regarding political correctness is more just a general statement about society in modern times. It seems we are in an era of no personal responsibility. Some would say this is exactly what Universities are trying to promote when they ban "hazing," but I think that idea is mistaken. How can you promote PERSONAL responsibility when you are micromanaging the activities you can VOLUNTARILY be involved in. I went to a very conservative school (student body), with very steeped tradition in all facets of campus life, including the greek system. Unfortunately, the members of our administration, as members of academia, are much more "progressive," and would prefer to see us move away from such tradition. However, why should they decide what incoming students, many who are legacies both in GLO's and at the school itself, can participate in? There are advantages to many things considered hazing, such as physical fitness, increased knowledge regarding the fraternity, increased personal responsibility, as well as responsibility for the entire groups performance. Now somebody, please tell me how these things are bad. As I have said repeatedly, I do not support hazing which includes beating pledges, making them do disgusting things, etc...but rather the difficult tasks they must work together on to complete. How is somebody going to get physically injured in a lineup?

Actually, it's real simple. They're covering their legal backsides. If they don't (sometimes even if they do), they get sued along with whomever else can be implicated.

I'm afraid that if injuries, deaths and resulting litigation don't end, the backlash will be toward (although I don't think it can ever be as bad) the In Loco Parentis type rules and regulations that we had to deal with when I was in college.

This has nothing to do with Political Correctness. It has to do with finances. A million dollar lawsuit here -- another one there -- pretty soon you're talking about some real money.

Oh I obviously understand the reasoning the universities use, and trust me, it is about political correctness. You're right, a good deal may be based on financial reasoning, but for example, our professors who vote on issues that involve students and greek life, are generally to the left of normal, and have very PC viewpoints regarding what greeks should be allowed to do. But yes, the administration is concerned only with money in most cases.

While decisions may have a great deal to do with money, I also chose to believe that administrators/faculty also hope to encourage undergraduates to develop into responsible, law abiding citizens. What is so wrong with treating each other with respect?

If you want to be treated with respect at all times, and have your self esteem constantly boosted, don't pledge in the south. However, if you would like to learn how to be an adult male, act as a gentleman, and take personal responsibility, it may be for you. What people fail to realize is that professors and administrators are not usually against fraternities because they don't promote respect for each other, but rather because they simply don't like the types of people in fraternities. Why? Because they're often wealthy, white, republicans, and they don't generally appeal to academia. Fraternities aren't inclusive, nor should they be, and many in the education business have difficulty with this, as they feel everyone should feel included, whether they belong or not.