[/B]How many minorities do you know that have a 1.0 GPA, have a household income of $100,000, go to class once a month, and have a FULL SCHOLARSHIP?


Perhaps you would care to do some surfing on the net for links about affirmative action.I think it would benefit greatly.

Negative Action
 

Once again, don't assume everyone thinks that hired minorities are lazy bums to everyone else. But know that they came in the easier way that was not open to someone who was not a minority.

My problem with affirmative action is this. The claim that people who are minorities deal with poverty and it is harder for them to get into college, is wrong to me. Immigrants to this country often have to deal with even poorer conditions but if they don't fit into the minority, well screw them. Also, the concept of using racial categories comes in again. There are groups within whites who are underrepresented, yet because they've been clumped together in the category of "white", they are considered part of the majority.

I would rather have it that a school or job looks at the obstacles that you've overcome. If you're from the boondocks and walked 4 hours to school every day and had no money, then I think you should get a lot more consideration. But what's the point of taking a black person who has a high income all because they are black? Then it becomes an issue of diversity. The school wants to provide the students with some interaction that allows that homogeneity to go away. But even this isn't accomplished. Seriously when you get to a lot of campuses, you see the different crowds because the saying birds of a feather, flock together still holds. Then the reason for affirmative action might be based on the birds of a feather saying. If you are a minority, you feel uncomfortable. There are no if's and but's about that. So perhaps seeing that there are a lot of people like you on a campus will attract you to that campus.

- Rudey
-- I have a craving for cotton candy, not grits

Okay, if you had read my entire post and not taken what I said out of context you would understand that what I was saying was
#1 would you want to be hired because you were a minority and for not other reason?
and #2- yes there are scholarships available to people that are minorities for no reason other than that. At WKU there is an application for minority students only (not females, ethnicity only) and the minimum gpa required is a 2.0 or a 20 on an ACT to get a scholarship, where as the application for anyone caucasian requires a 3.0 or above and minimum ACT of 28. My roommate working in the admissions office and told me almost on a daily basis that there were people with full ride scholarships that had 1.9 GPAs or whatever and had a 20 on the ACT and got full rides because they were a minority. Now.. this is ONE university, a whole university, btw.

As for the glass ceiling I never said anything about that. There is a glass ceiling in almost every company where women and minorities are stuck at.

AND I do believe that I said someone that wanted to take a few free years in school that was lazy- not just everyone. I know of minorities that have received scholarships because they were outstanding students, and no other reason. I think I would be much more proud of myself if I was held to the standards (SEE ABOVE IF YU DONT UNDERSTAND) than if I got a scholarship because I was a minority. But maybe I just hold myself to that standard.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I totally disagree with this. The fact that you used "probably" in your sentence indicates you don't fully believe it either.

Rudey, do not put words into my mouth. My sentence of "Those individuals PROBABLY worked just as hards and as long as anyone else" was in regards to work ethic. Some people have to struglle for good grades, some don't


Does the number one change the meaning somehow? Does one person who was killed for a stupid cause make them nothing to look at? And the fact is that it's not just one. I don't make a claim that you can be an idiot and get into Harvard if you're simply black, but I can easily say that if you're black it will help you get in...meaning that if your stats are less than others who are not in the minority, you can still get in.

Again Rudey, as Librasoul22 has stated and which was the intent of my statement, please look at things GLOBABLY and not just one incident (in regards to PM Mama's post)



Nobody claims they are lazy or dumb, but everyone knows that the standards are lower if you're not in the "majority". I remember reading somewhere that there are whites who can get into black colleges easier lately. They may not be worth any less than the blacks, but certainly their stats can be lower and the school's adcomm will look the other way when they wouldn't for someone in the majority.

Did she or did she not just the word LAZY (Ilovemyglo) in her post?? I was addressing it to her statement. Additionally please provide me with some info in regards to HBCU's LOWERING their standards to admit white students. i attended an HBCU (with about 40% of non-african americans) and I really don't believe your statement has much basis to it.


Once again, don't assume everyone thinks that hired minorities are lazy bums to everyone else. But know that they came in the easier way that was not open to someone who was not a minority.

Rudey, why are you telling people (and I quote ) " don't assume everyone thinks that hired minorities are lazy bums to everyone else. But know that they came in the easier way that was not open to someone who was not a minority. " HUH??? Aren't you doing the same thing within one statement? You just told me to not assume that minorities that are not lazy, but its ok to ASSume that they came into the easier way???

How does anyone know HOW they came in? Just because they are a minority?

AA (in academia) was not created because some colleges were harder to get into. It was created because they are institutions of higher learning that would not admit a minority in REGARDLESS!!!!!! (of GPA, community service, academic achievements). It was not based on FINANCIAL NEED,


And Ilovemyglo, your post was read loud and clear and understood what you said. i can't apologize if my response wasn't what you were looking for.

On a personal note
 

I wanted to personally respond (but seperately) to ilovemyglo in reagards to how would I feel ......

I really wouldn't care, especially in regards to what other people thought. Why? Because regardless as to HOW I received a job, there would always be ignorant people that would think that the only reason why I got it was because I am black! PERIOD.

Nevermind the BA or working on the MBA.

Nevermind the fact that one of my work AND personal references is Paul Patton (who you should know is the gov of your lovely state) and his wife.

Regardless of my personal and public achievements, to some folks that is not good enough. It is because of this folks that AA exist.

**** AGAIN THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND NOT THAT OF THE GENERAL AFRICAN AMERICAN POPULATION*********
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO PM ME IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS!!

Okay...
First @ Rudey, you get MAJOR props. Even when you post something I don't necessarily fully agree with you present an argument that makes me reconsider my stance. Love it!

First of all, do not go comparing apples and oranges. The number "one" is VERY significant in this case. Getting a job due to your ethnicity is hardly the same as a murder, lol. What Honeykiss1974 was trying to illustrate is that one case or even TEN cases do not balance out the discrimination that takes place on a daily basis. While 10 white men may have been overlooked for positions due to an African-American (or WHATEVER minority you want to place there) being up for the same position, I GUARANTEE you that will not EVER overcome the number of African-Americans who are discriminated against for positions DAILY. And if you want to talk semantics (lol), let us factor in the IMPORTANCE of the positions. That is why I asked about CEO's, etc. Because bottom line, there are VERY FEW minorities who hold positions of TRUE power in the United States, and even THEY still hav superiors to answer to.

Ilovemyglo...what college in their right mind looks for individuals who have no interest in attending college? Of ANY ethnicity? :confused: I am sure you were trying to make some kind of point, but that was clearly an over-exaggeration.

@ RUGreek...I was trying to get something out of your last post, but it was convoluted. Please clarify your point and I will try harder to understand.

Back @ Ilovemyglo: The positions that are most affected by Affirmative Action are barely anything to even concern yourself over. Please name an instance of a CEO or a head of a major corporation getting their position due to Affirmative Action. That is why the argument against AA is so fruitless. As far as colleges go, let me know when the demographics of universities as a whole start taking a drastic incline towards ANY minority.

Lastly @ KSig...a great post. I am in total agreeance with everything you said.

Who is the moderator of this forum?

one short message on AA
 

Does anyone ever stop to think about the secondary school system in America when they argue against AA?

Public schools in minority neighborhoods can not even begin to match the education given at institutions where the students are mostly white.

This is all related to the funding of schools coming from property taxes of course, but what it essentially means is that if you live in a black neighborhood, good luck getting anything approaching a real education! The people that manage to are the EXCEPTIOn, not the majority.

In America, education is not equal, especially not for minorities of pretty much all colors (schools in the Chinatown district of NYC face the SAME problems).

AA is supposed to address this education gap.

How come I never hear ANY of the people who are so vocal about AA arguing the same way against the ease with which legacy students get into college? I know a lot of people who got into colleges because of Daddy's name and Daddy's money and no one gave it a second though, but when I who was head of debate, editor of the newspaper and had a great GPA got into an Ivy League college on early decision no less, they had a problem with it.

Can someone explain that to me possibly? There were two people in my high school class with SAT and SAT II scores higher than mine. But my getting into Who's Who was about my race? Come on! I really think a lot of people are hypocrites on this issue- Black people because it's in ouyr benefit (sorta) and white people because it's not in theirs FOR ONCE.

*SIGH* :( The more things change, the more they stay the same. While I understand that the views represented in this thread are of an individual nature, it saddens me that, when it comes down to it, too many people still feel this way. With that said, I just want to address a couple of issues:

See, that's the beauty of you being WHITE and FEMALE in this country. You can rest assured that if you are "held to the standards" you've described, that you have a great chance of getting the job, scholarship, etc... Now, being BLACK and FEMALE, I can't say the same thing. Hence the need for affirmative action. "I think I would be much more proud of myself if I was held to the standards (SEE ABOVE IF YU DONT UNDERSTAND) than if I got a scholarship because I was a minority." Well, how would you feel if you DIDN'T get the scholarship BECAUSE you're a minority?

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey but I can easily say that if you're black it will help you get in...meaning that if your stats are less than others who are not in the minority, you can still get in. and I don't make a claim that you can be an idiot and get into Harvard if you're simply black, but I can easily say that if you're black it will help you get in...meaning that if your stats are less than others who are not in the minority, you can still get in.

It is absolutely ludicrous and damn near narcissistic to think that ANY minority that receives a job/scholarship did so only because of his/her skin color. All jobs/schools have admission criteria set in place and, contrary to popular belief, even black students/applicants must adhere to that criteria. And the statements about minorities who are "lazy" and don't even want to go to college is laughable at best. AA is supposed to be about righting the wrongs of individuals who allow their own biases and prejudices to get in the way of making hiring decisions.

Also, if you believe that AA has ANYTHING to do with economics, you really have no clue and need to do some research before you continue to post.

LovelyIvy,
I completely agree!
Isn't this common knowledge though? Affirmative action benefits those minorities who have not had the privilege of receiving an equal education due to the fact that they live in a low income area. I can definitely say I've benfited from this.

I just wanted to clarify what I meant by this. I totally agree with LovelyIvy's post regarding the need for AA (disparity in education), which does indirectly encompass financial status. This comment was directed more towards these kind of comments:

Quote:

The claim that people who are minorities deal with poverty and it is harder for them to get into college, is wrong to me.

HELLO!!
 

*applause*

dooby doo
 

It is becoming harder to quote you with your addition of colors, but here we go...my thoughts start with the asterixes [Drum roll please]

- Rudey
-- Endorsed by librasoul22 ;)

Couldn't have said it better myself, lovelyivy84!

BTW, I wish I could say I wasn't disturbed by all the misconceptions about Affirmative Action that are being stated as fact by some, :eek: :rolleyes: but I am.

There is a wealth of knowledge about AA on the net...

Re: dooby doo
 

Ahhh...not quite endorsed, I am just acknowledging that, in comparison with others on this board, you seem to be somewhat more insightful as to what exactly you are arguing! :)

That being said, I think lovelyivy84's post was one of the better points made in this thread, and definitely food for thought. I am interested to see what the detractors say about that issue.

Without resorting to the "childess retort" level as some, I too along with Serentity am shocked, but certainly not surprised, by some of the misconceptions.

WOW
 

WOW... First, let me pray. Dear God, please give me the words to educate without offending others and causing someone to miss the message because of the delivery. Lord, give me the words to enlighten minds and in doing so help your light shine through me. ~Amen

Okay, deep breath. There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much to address here.

Let me start with affirmative action.

In large urban areas there is A LACK OF EQUITY IN EDUCATION. Breaking that down, that means, even within a certain school district that shares one huge tax base schools in which the student bodyis predominately white are often nicer, cleaner, better kept, employing better teachers, the benefisciaries of better field trips, the benefisciaries of free AP exams and many other things tha their predominately black counterparts in the SAME DISTRICT do not receive.

I am not referring to suburban schools that would clearly have a higher tax base (and can those afford higher quality), right now I am just talking of EQUITY WITHIN ONE DISTRICT.

Now this inequity, which is of even greater magnitude when comparing urban predominately minority schools and suburban predominately white schools, is what leads to inequity in education. A CHILD SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED BY THE EDUCATION SYSTEM BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS OR HER SKIN. period. When this happens, as it does EVERYDAY in America, something should and MUST be done to rectify the situation...this is where affirmative action comes in.

I am not dealing with the lazy children of any race. I am speaking of children who WANT to learn, but simply because of where they live and attend school (which due to zoning relates back to how much money their parents earn-an often related to "race") they are relegated to a school that provides an education less than and UNEQUAL to that of white students IN THE SAME DISTRICT.

For instance, in Houston, where I am from, high school attendance is based on where the student lives. Lets say I am from an area where the high school is sub-par and because I am from that area I AM REQUIRED TO ATTEND THAT SCHOOL (the magnet schools are full) I will not be afforded the same educational opportunities as students in THE SAME DISTRICT that live across town near the brand new school with computers in every classroom, free Princetown Review for SAT prep, school paid for AP exams and teachers who took pay cuts just to be able to say they teach at "the new school". This is inequity in education. Our parents live and pay taxes in the same district, therefore our schools which are in the same district and SHOULD be of equal opportunity, are not.

This contrast is even greater between rich suburban schools (often high European ancestry concentration) of suburban districts and poorer inner city (often high minority concentration) schools.

Affirmative action in education is NECEASSARY to rectify situations like this. Attending the inner city school, I may work HARD, HARD, HARD, but since my school does not offer free Princeton Review for SAT and since my school doesn't pay for my AP classes (which few inner city students can afford) I do not look as good ON PAPER when applying to college. I can get in, and I do. I have a 4.0, but I am often beaten out for scholarships by students from that school across town who took that free Princeton Review class and scored the guaranteed 140 points higher than me on the SAT. Or I cannot compete with that student who doesn't have a 4.0, but whose dad has whispered in the ear that if he can have the prestige of saying his son got a full ride to XX School, daddy will pay for the new chem lab (In this country on the whole, people who can afford to pay for new chem labs TEND to be white).

I want to go to college, I don't have a 1.39, or even a 2.9, or a rich daddy, but since there is no equity in secondary education I cannot afford to attend college.

Affirmative action in collegiate financing helps to rectify situations likes this. It helps to end the good old boy network of buying one's way into a free education. (Kind of ironic, huh?)

When money is set aside to fund minorities in higher education, it doesn't take money from white students, simply a separate pool of money is raised for minority students (who statistically DO come from lower socio-economic classes) so that they can compete against EACH OTHER on a level playing field. One in which being fortunate to attend "the good school" in the district does not buy one's way into college.

Additionally, I would like to state that a diverse student body BENEFITS EVERYONE. I attend Texas A&M, it is characterized as a "Good Ol' Boy" school. It has one of the most conservative and lily-white student bodies. In Texas, African-Americans make up about 13% of the population, but less than 3% of the A&M student body. Many of the students at A&M are from small (population less than 5000) predominately (if not completely) white towns. Many of the students have never seen a person of color before attending A&M.

Recently a survey was given to hiring departments at many Fortune 500 companies. The results stated that while employers were very confident in the strenght of the A&M degree and the A&M graduates were ALWAYS technically proficient they were often reluctant to hire them because many were closed-minded, lacked world exposure and LACKE THE ABILITY OR KNOW HOW TO INTERACT WITH DIVERSE GROUPS OF PEOPLE. They said they could not be confident sending them to Africa or the Middle East(very important in petroleum engineering...our engineering college is top ranked) because they were not certain of how they would respond and interact. Therefore, diverifying the student body (at any institution) strenghtens the degree earned by all because employers are confident that they are not hiring a person with limited exposure, limited knowledge of different groups and limited interaction capabilities.

Believe me, if a campus remains lilly-white it will hurt the very students complaining about efforts to diversify.

I hope all of that made sense.

Now, race.

There is no argueing race IS a social construct meant to segregate people. Period.

A person's phenotype (outward expression of their genes) CANNOT be used to make assumptions about their genotype (actually genetic makeup). This is because genes are either dominant or recessive. Basically, I may be very fair and very straight hair, and you assume I am of European ancestry and share a genotype common to many European people. You are wrong, because I am really born to two African American parents and my skin and hair are simply expressions of a combination of recessice genes that by nature and the decision of God made it through my bloodline, combined through my parents in just the right way to express my receissive genes. It just so happens that BOTH of my parents were carrying the recessive genes that are expressed phenotypically as light skin and straight hair and their combination was made evident in me.

note..I am not talking about me..I am pretty brown and loving it:D

Here is an example of a personal mishap. I spend six weeks in Israel during the summer of 1997. I traveled all over and one night my group dinned in the home of an Israelil-Arab family. The entire family was very pale with red hair. I (in my pre-reading of Race Matters ignorance) asked them if they were Irish Jews who made Aaliyah(moved to Israel and went through the steps to become citizens). They told me no, they were INDIGENOUS Arabs and just looked that way because of God.

They are not part of the "race" of people of European decent. Yet, they looked like it. PHENOTYPIC EXPRESSION (race) has no concrete biological basis, it is born of pure social construct by close-minded people who are now dead based on what APPEARS to be.

Let us just leave it at that. Yes, phenotypic expression is often similar of people of the same "race", but there is no certainty and for ANYTHING to be biological and therefore scientifice there HAS to be certainty.

I hope I have enlightened without offending. I have been respectful and welcome posts in response, but please maintain the same level of respect.

I too with say, "Bring it!". Not because I like the movie, "Bring it on" or because I am immature, but because I am confident in what I know. I have been trained for this discussion and an ready educate.

Re: dooby doo
 

Huh??? "You got an extra boost which others didn't"? Excuse me, but being a white male with unlimited educational resources is a hell of a boost in my book.

Fight you dogs of the devil!

ARRRRRG!

How many races or religions are pure?

Sometimes self importence in each of these areas gets underwhelming by the actions of a few who want to put your beleifs on the others!

Get over yourself importance and try to focus on the Main Picture of what needs to be done! Not by brow beating the members of this site!

Grits, just what the hell is grits? What is Spam? What is Pone?

What is BS?

S*&^ Runs down hill and we all feel at times we are the bottom of the food Chain!

Politically Correct and Affirmative Action, Yes, I have seen both at work in their Governmental way! Who does that help?

It hurts all! Not just one type of people or person!

You may pick up the Standard for the certain groups but whom do you hurt in the long run!:confused:

Of all of the rhretoric going around I find it very saddening from this great group of People!

I have seen better discussions by 1st and 2 nd graders on TV!

I am sorry people but I am unimpressed by the name calling and back bites from some who call themselves adults!

Carry on and act like little ethinic children! Your decision!:(

Re: Re: dooby doo
 

A white male...well I understand the male part...but not the white part. Would you care to explain to me what white is? Then go further and tell me what "unlimited" educational resources a white male gets. In the mean time, I will say "Huh" and excuse you as you asked.

- Rudey

Believe me, Tom Earp ... after trying to decipher most of your posts, you REALLY don't want to go there. :rolleyes:

Re: not taking back a word
 

This is the funniest thing that I have read in a long time. :D Just trying to bring a little levity. :)

I don't know much about Affirmative Action. My understanding is that it was created to level the playing field and compensate for past exclusion from higher education and current inequalty in education. I don't have a problem with that. I have a big problem with the current problems in public school education particularly in NYC and other urban areas.

Bamboozle this
 

You've been bamboozled into thinking I said the fact that someone is a minority is the only reason they received a job/scholarship.

And in regards to economics, I only meant what lovelyivy said about the lack of equality in funding of education. So please don't tell me I have no clue and need to do research before I post.

-Rudey

Re: Bamboozle this
 

Did you not say this earlier:


"The fact is that it's easier to get in if you're an underrepresented minority. It is not the end all, be all reason for why you were accepted, but yeah you can bet that if you checked off any of those minority boxes, you got an extra boost which others didn't. '

yes, you did try and clean it up by saying that it wasn't the end all reason, but still........

I am totally unimpressed by your mental dexterity and renumeration of my ineptatude!

That just shows your where with all of the true picture!

The reason I could not just stand by is , Da Why?

If you want to be a what ever you call your self, feel free, and many people will just sit back and Go What!:confused:

You and many others of your group do get tedious and longer winded! Self importance is getting just a little bit under whealming!

Say what you will, but a lot of people are getting very tired of it! Look to see how many other people are joinging in this thread!

Why not drop it instead of Prolonging it! ?:confused:

Re: Re: Bamboozle this
 

Wow, this is a little funny. Your line about the end all reason is very true. I am not cleaning anything up. I am saying it is PART of, not ALL of, the reason why you were admitted. I am not sure what is hard to understand but i'm not trying to clean anything up so don't put words in my mouth as you said.

- Rudey

Tom Earp, I was SO ready to leave you out of this. I even deleted a post of mine because it was brought to my attention that it was kinda harsh/personal.

But this is too much.

"Your group"?

Why have YOU prolonged it by adding another post? Really. Think before you hit submit.

Rudey, your pm was well-received. I do think it is funny that everyone else thinks that "we" are simply "sticking together" as a "group" in this thread. Could it not be that "we" just have the same beliefs? I see that Cream and KSig pretty much have said what "we" have. Does that include them in the "group" too? This is very interesting to me. Not once has anyone accused the detractors of race a a social construct of "showing solidarity" or being a "group." I think this is more telling than anything about the mentalities of some in this thread. Hmmm....grouping and classifying...sound familiar?

QUOTE: This is very interesting to me. Not once has anyone accused the detractors of race a a social construct of "showing solidarity" or being a "group." I think this is more telling than anything about the mentalities of some in this thread. Hmmm....grouping and classifying...sound familiar?

^ 5

Re: Negative Action
 

SOME CLARIFICATION!

Just because you are a minority it does NOT mean that you automatically get scholarships! :rolleyes:

Most of the scholarships for minorities are for the ones that who are POOR!

Some of you are confusing this as racial thing instead of a class one!

I'm a minority and I too think that a lot of scholarships are unfair.

I come from a middle class family and we have to work our a$$es off in order to pay tuition for a mediocre school, while athletes, musicians, artists, and the underprivledged gets a free a ride to any school of their choice, just because. :mad:

I WANT TO GET THIS STRAIGHT!

And, another thing. HTF are Arabs WHITE? :confused:

Re: Re: Negative Action
 

PM_Mama...

I...Really...Think...You...Should...Not...Post...A gain.

Jewish people of Eastern European descent.

It would depend how narrow those categories are divided. And yes I know jews and irish people aren't races, those were examples of stereotypes associated with a group. Don't take things so literally.


I don't disagree that many people are stupid, but that's not my point. It's just the way people categorize racial and ethnic groups.

Yes, that's how you see it, but not everyone. We are not trying to create the perfect society and how people think, just dissect how it is and why people see it that way.

If this doesn't make sense to you, don't worry about. I'm not categorizing the world for you, so relax kiddo. This is just an explanation of what racism is. People look at more than just skin tone, so don't base an argument against science on one example. Not everyone fits into a specific racial group, in fact, one could argue not a single person does because we are so much different down to the core. But the basic examples of traits and characterstics can group a # of people into a group. You can find a # of people that are completely "mixed" but you can still find a bunch of "pure" african-americans, asian, native americans (i hope), caucasians, indians, etc.

Sometime people stereotype an individual into a specific racial group, even if they do not belong their (a dark-skinned european caucasian as you point out) but that doesn't change the fact that he/she will be discriminated against as if he/she were in fact part of the racial group in which the appear to be part of. It does come down to biology, it's what makes us look like we do.


RUgreek

PM Mama 00

Keep on posting, matter of fact, post more! What you say is pure comedy. And, how much is lil itty bit prejudIST?

Neicy81, where can I get my holistic healing on?

On an entire different note, I wonder how many PMs are flying around about this thread? Fess up! :D

Re: WOW
 

I think this is the best post I've read on this thread- thanks for providing all of the technical information!

And you KNOW you wrong for prayin up in here! LMAO! :D

No it does not come down to biology. What you are talking about is APPEARANCE. TOTALLY DIFFERENT from biology which has a science basis. Appearance! You mean appearance! Once I understood that was what you meant I 'got' what you were saying. I just wish you understood that what you are discussing is NOT Biology or science (which are terms that I feel, unlike racism- or hell, any ism, have pretty standard definitions), but completely superficial judgement. Yes, people DO base judgements on appearance! You're correct! They do! But it's not biology!

LMAO! This is comedy!

Nevermind about the holistic healing.
Exquisite5, can we get a prayer chain going on?

As for AA... We wouldn't need it if groups were equally represented. But they're not! I personally see no problem at all with providing education to those that could not otherwise afford it.

Afterall, this is the United States. You're supposed to be judged on your own merit, not your parents or your community's.

Once you HAVE an education I begin to have a little trouble understanding it. It's so damned hard to get a job out of school... I don't care what color your skin is. I honestly think that after someone has proven themselves in school they should be able to be judged solely on their merit.

That's a big damned complicated issue... but since it's out in the open that's my $0.02

clarification on MY beliefs
 

People who think that me n' Honeykiss n' librasoul22 are some sort of pc gang really don't know anything about any of us! Our beliefs differ a great deal- but we really don't express them in front of you on racial topics on a regular basis. We discuss our opinions on the black community all the time, and believe me they are very very different for each of us. The effective segregation on GC btwn BGLO members/interests and other folks means that you just don't see us enough to know that.

I am much less liberal than both of them, lol.

And to clarify my issues with AA, let me state that I actually don't like it. I feel that AA is not a program that effectively reaches the people who need it's help the MOST- the kids in those broke ass public schools who have no prospects! Something like a third of the black community lives at or below the poverty line, but they are not the people who benefit from this policy! Upper middle class blacks with access to educational opportunities that approach parity with whites' benefit more than their poorer brethren.

I have a PROBLEM however with most AA detractors, because they don't have any ideas about how to CHANGE the policy. Get rid of it, and then what? The COMPLETE social stratification of our society along racial lines? IF you are going to propose getting rid of it, then tell me what we should put in its place. Until I see a better program developed, I will fight for this one, because as small of an opportunity it is, it's really the best one Black Americans have got.

I have a PROBLEM with white female detractors because they are the people who have benefited the MOST from this policy, not ethnic minorities. Yet I almost never hear anyone challenged on being hired for a position because they are female (unless they want to be a firefighter, which is actually a pretty valid worry)! It was a policy white women fought for until the moment they were perceived as approaching parity with men, and then it was ok to start bashing it. That's just wrong in MY opinion.

Folks, come with something better than "it's racist against white people" because quite frankly, I don't think it even BEGINS to redress the racial inequalities of our society! I was never one for the power definition of racism, but here I feel it is valid. How is it racist against whites when it ultimately does NOT A THING to change the status quo? The balance of power remains.

Tom, I am not trying to clown or flame you. I have an honest question.

Why is it that every time these topics are discusses, you take such HUGE exception to things posted by blacks? Maybe I haven't read enough of your posts, but I have yet to see you get so worked up at anyone who was not discussing these issues from an African-American community centered point of view.

I really don't think it's us. Most of us aren't radical at all, but just want it to be acknowleged that racism didn't just go away one day in the 60's and stop affecting black people!

Youa re an older person, and that probably informs a lot of your views. Maybe it's generational. But I honestly feel that it's starting to look like you are targeting anyone who disagrees with white people on this board, or are willing to argue their stance.

Once again, I am not trying to judge or be disrespectful (I was raised not to be like that with my elders, even on the net, lol) but I really think you should consider what I'm saying.