But that's the point -- some kinds of clothing (like jerseys with block letters) typically do represent membership while other kinds (like event tee shirts) typically indicate attendance at the event rather than membership. Hence the distinction some groups and some campuses make.

And I guess it bears saying again: Different GLOs have different policies about non-members wearing letters. We should all be following the policies of our own GLOs regarding our letters and not worry about other org's policies and letters.

And to get back to the topic of the thread, I would hope that no one here would be ill-mannered enough to intentionally embarrass a non-member wearing letters.

GROUP shirts (co-sponsoring, Greek Week) are a different thing.
If I wear a shirt that says "Cookout sponsored by XYZ fraternity" then that shows who provided the funds and place to have a cookout. Or a "Greek Week" shirt with all the orgs listed... it's assumed that I'm a member of one of those, but none specific.

If I walk around wearing a ABC shirt, people would assume I'm an ABC. And if I haven't been taught ABC's values then I could misrepresent that organization. Whether it's cloth letters, twill, or screenprint.

So if you happened to have parents event, does your chapter not get shirts that have TPA letters on them for your parents since they aren't members?

Ditto. The world won't end if someone is wearing my letters that isn't an AOII. I know I've personally given formal shirts and crawfish boil shirts to more dates in the past than I can count that have AOII all over them. Alpha Omicron Pi is still going strong. I've even seen a homeless person wearing such a shirt. It's not ideal, but I won't tear my hair out about it.

Agreed. Plus at some schools the sororities all give out crate loads of shirts that say "Rush XYZ" to any fraternity boy who will wear it. It's PR for them and I don't think people are too worried about them not knowing what the letters mean while wearing them.

sidebar/

I thought that was against NPC rules? I thought I remembered seeing that on here somewhere. Oh well -- learned something new today

/sidebar

Vito wasn't talking about event t-shirts (for mixers, Greek week, what have you). He was talking about a screen printed t-shirt with nothing but Greek letters on it and why that would be OK for nonmembers to wear, but stitched letters are verboten.

k_s (and everyone), a shirt that says "Rush XYZ" or a button that says "I heart XYZ" is different from a shirt with ONLY the Greek letters on it. The first does not imply membership, the second does (whether it's stitched, screen printed or written in blood). I'm hoping the stuff katydid KD was talking about in her post a page or two down had a "rush" qualifier on it.

The ones I've personally been given say either rush XYZ or I heart XYZ. However, fraternities on my campus give letters to girls like crazy. Probably not right, but that is how it is. Not saying I agree with it, but thats something that XYZ fraternity decides to do with their XYZ letters. It is good pr/"fratty" for them to have women wearing their letters (i see a lot of jerseys, hats, any kind of t shirt.) Sororities do it too, but not as much. I've never seen stitch sorority letters, buy guys are wearing shirts with screen printed letters very often.

That's not what I was talking about.

I thought that "Rush XYZ" shirts were given to women from fraternity men, but not the other way around (for fear of being un-Panhellenic). At least, that's the impression I got from reading GC.

katydidKD's post cleared that up, though (she said it's done, but not as often).

Never, in my experience, are "rush" shirts made to give to fraternity men, or shirts made exclusively to be worn by fraternity men. Also, on my campus we cannot formally use the word "rush" (no tshirts, etc.)

But, women ordering formal shirts for their dates, giving them an old tshirt from their philanthropy, is done in part because it is good pr for rush.

On my campus.

OK, now I'm back to square one lol

It sounds like you're talking about regular shirts given out throughout the year being worn by fraternity men = Good PR, indirectly affecting rush

shirley1929 sounded like she was talking about "Rush ABC Sorority" shirts given out at the beginning of the school year = Good PR, created specifically to influence rush

shirley1929's shirts are the ones that I thought were taboo, not the ones you're describing.

I just wanted to make sure my thinking wasn't off.

You have everything correctly. On my campus, Shirley's shirts, as described, would never happen for the reasons you mentioned previously.

I'm thinking at schools like Univ of Texas. They have "Round-Up" a big party weekend in Austin. The girls (knowing that several PNM's come to the weekend in the spring) drop of crate loads of shirts at the different fraternity houses. The shirts will have slogans that would infer that they're recruitment shirts and that the wearer is supporting that particular sorority (they may not exactly say "Rush XYZ" but they'll say "Think XYZ" or "Go ABC"). The guys might wear an ABC shirt to one party and an XYZ to the next. Or an ABC shirt with an DEF button at the same time. Veeeerrryyy common.

I know this isn't exclusive to UT, TX Tech and TX A&M and other schools do similar events.

It depends on the context.

It isn't about ill-manner but rather about different protocols and traditions across councils/conferences and GLOs.

That makes more senseeee

Ok "makes sense", but based on what you said before these sort of rush shirts would absolutely never happen where you are. Again, I think it all comes down to campus culture.

Let's be honest, if the guys get the shirts in the spring, the hope is that they'll wear them all summer so that PNM's see them!

Yeah, apologies for the extra vowels. I have an annoying tendency to type the way I talk/think sometimes. :D

Ones made for XYZ fraternity that said RUSH ABC sorority would never happen at my campus per panhellenic (like k_s mentioned), and that is what i thought you meant prior to your clarification.

Gotcha. Just sincerely curious though, what's the difference between "Rush ABC" and "Go ABC"? Isn't the implication the same? I think I'm splitting hairs, but I'm genuinely curious if there's a line crossed...?

lane swerve/

What on Earth does guys wearing tshirts have to do with sorority PNMs? GLO cultures differ but can't attracting PNMs through men be problematic?

/lane swerve

Swerve anytime you like!

I would guess the thinking has multiple layers...1) It's more people that can wear your letters on multiple occasions (its not like the shirts can be given to other women outside of XYZ, so 50% of the student body is out) and 2) The PNM's are coming to town for orientation and will hopefully see Joe cute Frat Guy who happens to be in summer school wearing that shirt. It beats the heck out of a flyer on a tree on campus, that's for sure!

Now, the other side of it is drunk barfing frat guy wearing your shirt and being a general nuisance...I'm guessing he gets his stripped off of him posthaste. :cool:

Clearly the pros must outweigh the cons, because it's been going on for decades at these places.

I see what you're saying. I can see if this became as widespread on my campus as it is on the ones you mentioned it being a problem with panhellenic (go or rush) and resulting in infractions.

DrPhil--- yes its problematic, but it does attract PNM's, and shirley1929's explanation pretty much covers it. Goes both ways though, and is wayyyy more outright with fraternities (who do make shirts, for girls, that say RUSH ABC) and is not a problem with IFC, nor will be (with the IFC on my campus). One fraternity actually made pink AA v-necks that said SE(sigma)XY (sigma chi) for girls of their choice.

Thanks for responding. I truly do not see the pros but this isn't my lane so there is a lot that I do not know. :p

How do you all know that this is working? Do PNMs tell you all that they "discovered" NPC sororities because of these shirts on men? You all don't think that kind of sucks that they "discovered" NPC sororities via tshirts on men?

Thanks. :)

I think it's problematic that some fraternity chapters do that. I consider it embedded in the same thing that makes some fraternity men wear those disrespectful sexist fraternity tshirts. It's all saying "we have the hot women, come rush us."

Since I'm not there, this is all merely speculation on my part. (Sorry, I should have said that at the beginning, but I didn't think this was going to be such a big discussion!)

I'm sure they don't hear about it from the PNM's directly, just as you don't go tell Coca-Cola you saw their billboard on I-95. I think the hope is that an idea is planted like "Wow, Hottie Mchottenhot was wearing NOP's letters, his fraternity must mix with NOP, so maybe I should give them a good look during recruitment".

Obviously there is no research data to back this claim up. But it works. Sex sells. Yes. Problematic, absolutely.

ETA--- I almost exactly referenced Coca-cola! Just like you don't tell them the hot woman in the commercial is what made you buy a case.

Well, there are customer surveys but a billboard on I-95 is a neutral venue. Are men a neutral venue for sorority advertising (assuming that some GLOs feel the need to advertise)? :)

Oh. :(

I flush that in the toilet with "this NPHC sorority was in the stepshow so I am now interested in joining"/"this NPHC sorority hangs with this NPHC fraternity so I want to join it."

/end lane swerve

Correct.

What if the billboard on I-95 had a gorgeous half naked woman drinking a coke?

Very problematic. Oh well, I guess.

I'd be more inclined to buy because of a hot man than a hot woman. I'm even more inclined to buy because I want to drink Coca-Cola than because of any type of sexual soda stuff. Noticing something doesn't mean you want it.

This is the second time you've said this so I must ask why you think I am attracted to women.

Okay, a hot person that is of the gender you are attracted to. You may buy coca-cola because you want one, but so much money and attention is placed into advertising by these companies because research tells them what makes their product sell. Just like i wonder if i would really buy abercrombie jeans if i didnt sub consciously hope some ripped dude in boxers is going to come to me as the advertisement suggests.

the "you" was a general you. not you as an individual.

ETA: most sexy advertising that i see is using sexy women and not sexy men. so that is why the general "you" I am speaking of is attracted to a sexy woman.

Noticing something doesn't mean you want it. I see Abercrombie but find it horrendous especially for someone in my age group.

More importantly, Coca-Cola and Abercrombie are not sororities rooted in sisterhood. LOL.

If some sorority chapters want to play this game, okay. But a Delta aspirant better not ever tell me that she became interested in Delta because of a man.

A general you would be motivated by a half naked woman?

Again, noticing something doesn't mean you want it. If knowing about something is the point, that's fine even if it means some people are repulsed. However, if actually wanting that something is the point, it isn't enough to turn heads at the risk of turning stomachs.

Agreed, BUT every chapter wants (in a perfect world) every girl going through to want them - at least at first. Notice I didn't say "I want to pledge that chapter because of Hottie McHottenhot" I said "give them a hard look". In theory, the recruitment process should then whittle down the people who are there for the right reasons.

The billboard on I-95 with the hot person you're attracted to makes you LOOK at it. The product should really be what makes you buy it.

They are not, but sororities rooted in sisterhood (NPC, I know some GLO's do not recruit because people come to them) find advertising techniques useful.


If Polly PNM told me they wanted to be in KD because they hang out with XYZ fraternity I would be ticked/turned off as well. But, if Polly PNM is attracted to KD because she sees their letters everywhere, including on fraternity men, which means KD is social, fun, etc., thats different.

Yes. This is what I meant.

I will also look at the billboard on I-95 if it just says (insert product that I like). That's how companies like McDonald's are able to market themselves. Besides, billboards with "hot people" are not found on any highways that I drive on unless it is a company like Hooters or a "gentleman's club."

Point being, there are better ways to do it. People will either notice you or not notice you.

This thread is morphing into advertising/marketing discussion lol. Now that you mentioned McDonald's, I'm thinking of the Burger King commercial with Miss Turkey. It reeked of sexism, and I'm sure worked too.

ETA: Carl's, not BK. The Commercial

Trust me, I 100% agree with you. I'm just attempting to explain something that seems to have become somewhat of a culture norm at different places. I think it's one of those things that's mushroomed over the years and you don't want to be the GLO that doesn't play the game.

Do I think there are better ways of advertising? Of course.

Do I think this is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad idea that is ruining NPC groups at their absolute core? Meh, no - I think it's fairly harmless in the big scheme of things.