You haven't addressed the point that essentially refutes this:

Israel has been quite precise in its bombing, and has spent limited resources on attacks on civilian areas in the south of Lebanon and the Hezbollah-controlled southern suburbs of Beirut.

If Israel chose to ignore civilian lives, it would not show this sort of precision.

Are civilians killed? Yes - clearly. The reasons for this are essentially a.) propaganda techniques by Hezbollah that place tactical positions inside civilian encampments (which they've done since, oh, the 1970s - and we saw this in Iraq, as well, with Mosque encampments) and b.) the necessary collateral damage of war.

Note that this issue is NOT a matter of degree - that is to say, "just because Israel could wipe the nation off the map, that does not mean they are doing well by not" - as I'm sure will be your initial reaction. However, I'm pretty sure you can't get around this point - especially when rockets are being fired indescriminately into Israeli civilian locations.

Can you actually address this point? No ad hominem, no political bias - no way for you to cop out here, I'm seriously interested.

Not to jump in the middle of this argument Opi but I just did a quick search on your posts and while I didnt look at every single one, you mention about 3 times that your family is Somalian. So its really not stalking when you mentioned it yourself...just my 2 cents...

Precise Israeli bombings? bombs are NOT precise. They are indiscriminate. If they were so precise, why was the UNIFIL, just yesterday, bombed at? This isnt the first time this happened. There was another bombing about a week ago, both hizbullah and IDF said it wasn't their bombs. But the UN confirmed it to be an Israeli shell. These bombs and targets are NOT precise. Unless of course, you consider a mosque (under construction and obviously unoccupied) are precise targetting. Or how about the hospitals under attack? the infrastructure of lebano. How about the targetting of fleeing families (trying to evacuate)? Sorry, it is NOT precise enough. Maybe the missiles the US is sending could help them out a bit.

Civilians are necessary collateral damage? Does that include Israeli civilian lives as well, or just lebanese? Does it include children, babies, fleeing families, foreigners (UN)?

Listen, bombs (whether from Israel or Hizbullah) are indiscriminate. Except, its Israel who are saying they are being "careful" not to target civilians when they obviously are. Again, who is suffering most of the loss here? Let's get this straight, Lebanon DID not start this war. Hizbullah did (and no under governmental orders either).

Propoganda is perpetrated by both sides (IDF and Hizbullah).

Did I address all your points?

Are you sure I used and not "East African". I will do the search and get back to you on that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Also, I'm pretty sure I didn't say my family was in government supporting terrorist organizations, either.


Rudey,

Apology accepted.

Katyusha rockets are not precise. It's like aiming at the general direction and watching the rocket go as far as possible with ball bearing and nails capped in the head so that when it lands it does maximum human damage to anyone nearby. They also use Iranian and Russian rockets which are much more precise and pretty much on par with what a lot of armies in the middle east have if not better. When was the last time you heard of a terrorist organization using satellite guided missiles? It's not often.

You know I don't know if you know this or not. A lot of the victims in Israel are Arab and Muslim. When those rockets rain down on them, there are lots of children dying. And Israel has sent Jewish soldiers into Lebanon and sacrificed their lives to protect its citizens, regardless of race or religion.

Israel has flown several thousand sorties over Lebanon this time. They attacked roads and airports to prevent new weapons from coming in, hezbollah buildings to stop hezbollah from communicating, and trucks that they worried would carry new bombs. They dropped leaflets all over Southern Beirut asking civilians to leave. Only a couple hundred victims have died from this. And a lot of what's labeled as civilian simply is not. I'm not talking about children but people who keep bombs under their beds.

And you know what else Opi? Israeli soldiers have died from friendly fire. It's bound to happen. And it gets investigated. Much the same way, 4 UN soldiers died. Israel will investigate. Hezbollah has shot up UN personnel but nobody is investigating.

It's funny. How many Iraqi children die from Muslims killing Muslims? How about when Assad murdered 30,000 Syrians himself? But those are not considered atrocities. And when Arabs kill Israelis, it's considered heroic. It's only when Israel tries to fight back and a few civilians die in the process that Arabs consider it an atrocity.

-Rudey
--And again, Hezbollah and Hamas can release the prisoners and stop attacking Israel for no reason other than the fact they want it destroyed and this will all stop.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...69#post1218269

There are also 2 other posts where you mention that you call your grandparents by the Somalian word for "grandma" and "grandpa" and theres another post where you mention you lived there.

So basically quit being so paranoid, Rudey's a smart guy and he really has a crazy ass memory. It doesnt take much for someone to be able to put 2 and 2 together like he did.

Khelyee merci. Daset dard nakoneh koonee jan.

-Rudey

Congratulations on knocking down the strawman.

You've put up anecdotal evidence to the contrary, but that does NOT address my point: Israel has not 'carpet bombed' the area, nor has it concentrated on parts of Beirut outside of the southern, Hezbollah-controlled suburbs. This means they have selected small areas of concern, and attacked these. This means they are attempting to act with precision.

"Precise enough" is a vaguely humanitarian concern that does not further the discussion (nor does it really help your point all that much - think about that).

YES, by definition.

Israelis have died. Canadians have died. Fewer innocent Lebonese have died because of Israel's strike pattern than would have had they attacked indiscriminately.

. . . and let's get this straight: Israel has not attacked at the Lebanese government, it has not invaded, it has not even attempted a full-on infrastructure attack outside of Hezbollah-controlled areas.

So what now, Opi? Why do you ignore this, simply because you read about a Mosque falling? Why do you ignore what you read about rockets fired into towns, into civilian dwellings, on the Israeli side of the border?

I agree, but you didn't address my point about propaganda - namely, that Hezbollah has attempted to needlessly DRIVE UP the number of Lebanese civilian casualties by placing strategic encampments or targets within civilian locations. This is a de facto use of the 'human shield', and has been the modus operendi of terror groups in the area for decades.

So no, you did not address my points.

Ok, my turn. So I did mention were I was from. Sorry. What I'm not sorry about is that you brought it up to try and affiliate my family with terrorists.

Actually, few Israeli civilians have died. The majority deaths are soldiers. More Lebanese than Israeli civilians have died.



I don't care about a mosque (under construction) falling, but that Israel govt kept telling the world there was a bunker in there. CNN went in there. No bunker, no bombs.

I don't ignore Israeli civilians. First, their government should really try to get them to evacuate. two, they have bomb shelters. Lebanese civilians do not.


During times of wars, both sides purport propoganda. This is the point I am addressing with you. You want me to say any other news agency in the world except for American ones are sources of propoganda. I will disagree with you on that. Actually, I don't need a news media or hizbullah or the IDF to tell me that the actual numbers of Lebanese deaths are not nearly as high as it should.

How about this for propoganda, why do we know the age of the Israeli girl that died today, but we don't know the ages (yes more than 1 child) of the children in Lebanon that died today. Hizbullah propoganda?

I don't see why this distinction is important, to be honest. If anything, it's mostly related to your point below:

And so . . . ? I don't see how this 'matters', in a 'war' sense. Should Israel stop attacking because the Lebanese are worse equipped than their own civilians for such an attack?

Maybe it should tell you something that the Israelis HAVE such provisions available . . .

I don't want you to say anything of the sort - in fact, I've never assailed your sources, just your conclusions. I agree that both sides will twist media attention in their favor - see: Israel bombs mosque, claims shelter, CNN can't find evidence. However, saying "ISRAEL DOES IT TOO!" does NOT, in fact, negate my point at all - it's fallacious logic.

Nope, I'd say that's good old fashioned American journalism during wartime - something that's been going on for decades, and something I don't necessarily agree with. DeltAlum may actually provide some insight here, too - there might be other reasons, such as lack of access to Lebanese information/stories comparatively, or the rationale of taking one story as indicative and exploring it in detail - but regardless, I'm not playing apologist for propaganda techniques.

I'm simply asserting that one benefit for Hezbollah in placing strategic locations within urban areas comes in the ability to claim "Israel has killed the innocent!" when unavoidable collateral damage occurs.

You have addressed this by saying "Israel manipulates the media too!" This is not, at all, the issue. You're going 10 rounds with the strawman instead of swinging for the actual topic.

My sister's favorite sentence: Let's agree to disagree!

Shall we?

One of my favorite phrases since I've been working is "the dick dance."

That's what the past however many pages have been.

Oh really? When was the last time that Hezbollah used "precise" munitions to bomb those pesky UN troops using their post as an evacuation point for civilians? Or fired off a couple tank rounds at Ghanese UN troops operating an aid station and flying the Red Crescent?

Sorry Rudey but F-ck Isreal and the IDF claiming that it was an accident - you can't play it both ways by claiming that you carefully plot attacks and that guided muntions (bomb and arti) are used... and then turn around and claim that whoops you bombed a highly visible and plotted neutral position...

Please tell me Rob how it would benefit Israel to bomb the UN intentionally? I would love to know.

Israel said it would investigate. It has been apologizing. The UN has backed away from its charge that it was intentional and is accepting that there will be an investigation.

-Rudey
--Oh and F-ck the UN for standing by while Israelis were murdered by Hezbollah in front of them, F-ck the UN for not releasing a video tape of the attack and their looking the other way, and F-ck the UN for pretending it's neutral.