Awww. Sensitive :rolleyes:

To go even more into that, each campus life is different. I go to a college of about 2,300 where the name of the game is crashing parties and the majority will allow anyone through the door. All dorms are loped into 3 sections which are a two minute walk between each section, with men and women of all ages on each section. It is really easy to find someone to grab you or your buddies some beer, and it isnt uncommon for an upperclassmen to offer. Only between 30-40 percent are greek, so the majority of the parties are not greek. Alcohol is as common as water here, so you find it by just walking out of your room. Secondly, atleast here, sports and clubs are pretty tight groups who have alot of get togethers. Just being in one of those activities gets you three or four heavy flowing alcohol parties. Its extremely easy for underage men/pledges to get some alcohol outside our fraternity, and theres were most of us get our alcohol. I know personally, I had a van, so I would take an international student to Walmart so they can get stuff and then they would be more willing to buy me some beer. There are tons of other methods too. If the college has deferred rush, the freshman have a whole semester where they have to find some way to get alcohol other then greek, and they do find it.

Thank you for the insight.

You hold the key to life in your keystroke.

Again, let me refer you to my previous post:

If a pledge said that she couldn't find her pledge pin (thinking she might have dropped it) and then forcing her "pledge sisters" to go outside (mind u it happened in November), and crawl around in the grass in pitch black WITH NO FLASHLIGHTS while its pouring rain, while the sorority sisters sit inside their apartment watching and yelling at the pledges cause that can't find it, would you consider that hazing?

If you have to wear a pledge pin on ur bra strap, and everytime a sister wants to see if you are wearing ur pledge pin, you have to show your bra---in front of any students who pass by....would you consider that hazing?


Is that hazing? I think so (and it was affirmed by a.e.B.O.T.). Did the sisters of that sorority have to crawl on the grass? NO. Did they do it with us? NO! I have no problem having to wear a pledge pin all the time...but in no way am I going to humiliate myself by exposing my bra just because a member of that sorority wants to "make sure" I have my pledge pin on!

There are reasonable and unreasonable behaviors in wearing pledge pins. This is true of ANY aspect of a pledge program/new member program.

Most APO chapters I know have reasonable requirements/guidelines for wearing the pin. One 'rule' I've heard (and repeated) is that pledges should be wearing the pin while 'out and about' (ie outside their dorm/apartment/home while on campus and the general community) between 8am and 10pm, and the wearing the pin is not expected during the 5 "S"s. The 5 "S"s are:
* Sleep (so no waking up the pledges at 2am in the morning to ensure they are wearing it pinned to their PJs)
* Shower (no expectation of the pledge wearing it going to/from/in the shower)
* Sex
* Sloshed (we prefer Brothers not wear pins while drinking. ditto for pledge pins)
* Sports (no wearing it during sporting activities). I think ROTC and the like would fall in with this.

Also, most would not require a pledge to wear the pin during religious practices, as some may be uncomfortable doing it.

A pledge pin costs $4. If a pledge loses the pin, they buy a replacement and life goes on.

If a pledge forgets to wear it on occasion, most might remind the pledge. If a pledge habitually forgets, then they might have their Big Brother &/or Pledge master have a talk with them. Not wearing the pin should not prevent a pledge completing the program IF they are meeting all their other requirements.

Making pledges wear it on their bra strap, or crawl around at night trying to find a lost pledge pin is childish and could be considered hazing. (and I think most alumni volunteers would have a word or two with that chapter if their advisors haven't said something). I know if I heard of a chapter doing this sort of cr*p, I wouldn't be too sympathetic.

Thank you for sharing this with us. With these kind of specific guidelines, I see no problem with the pledge pin requirement- as long as INDIVIDUAL chapters are communicating this to their pledges.

Well, communication is always a problem. :(

What I tell chapters (and I think other alumni volunteers do the same. this isn't a unique view point) is that they should have clear and objective pledge requirements, and that these requirements should be provided IN WRITING to the pledges (ideally as part of their pledge notebook) and reviewed with all pledges. I know many chapters do this. I would hope all do.

In the chapter I work with, we have our requiremens on-line (I know of other chapters that do the same) and we review all requirements with the pledges during the first pledge class session. Thus, everyone (hopefully) is clear about what is expected.

Having objective requirements (stuff like complete xx hours of service, attend xx number of meetings, meeting xx% of members, etc) makes it clear what is expected and avoids nonsense at the end of the program that they did not do a 'good enough job' and can't join.

Providing the pledges with these written requirements ensure that no surprises gets pulled at the end that they 'missed' some unknown requirement. Having them in writting also helps if either fraternity or university leaders want to review the requirements for any issues.

We also put down in writting what we will be teaching them and what of that they will be expected to learn for the tests. Again, I don't see this as an area that should allow for abuse or the like. If we want them to learn the names of all our National Presidents, then we will say up front from the begining that they need to learn this.

Yeah, well, it seems to me that no one in this thread asked for the specifics behind the "24/7" rule. People just went on a tangent about it inherently being hazing.

Wearing a pin is what it is. Chapters can turn ANYTHING into hazing if they want to but that doesn't always mean the national policy, itself, is the problem. If they don't communicate the guidelines to pledges or veer away from the guidelines then that is the problem.

amen. i agree with you in a previous post where you said that hazing is too broad. i think the main problem with the definition is that everything is hazing. unfortunatley, while most of us might be cool if we found one of our new members walking around without a pin, we wouldn't flip out. the problem is that there are a few members of every single one of our organizations that take everything to the extremes. "they" are out there making an innocent activity into something mean, dangerous, etc. the rest of us just have to follow more stringent rules in order to compensate for the rouge members.

Yes, I would. But the hazing involved is not the requirement to wear your pledge pin at all times. It's the ridiculous overreaction to a pledge losing the pledge pin. You lost the pin that the chapter gave you? Fine, you have to pay for a new one -- and then you are to wear it.

Quote:

If you have to wear a pledge pin on ur bra strap, and everytime a sister wants to see if you are wearing ur pledge pin, you have to show your bra---in front of any students who pass by....would you consider that hazing?

Well, since I was speaking from a fraternity viewpoint, and since I don't know many guys (Kramer or Frank Costanza notwithstanding) who wear bras . . . .

But seriously, why in the world would you wear a pledge pin on your underwear? How would that be considered respectful? Referring you to my previous post, plenty of fraternities do require pledges to wear pledge pins "24/7" (excepting the shower, sleepwear or athletic uniforms, etc.) In other words, if you're wearing clothes, unless it's a uniform of some sort, you should also be wearing your pledge pin. I guess I was presuming that everyone knew I meant specifically that your pledge pin should be on your shirt, sweater or sweatshirt, not on underwear. After all, the purposes of having pledges wear the pledge pin are (1) to show everyone else that he is a pledge, and (2) to demonstrate respect for and pride in the fraternity. Neither of these are accomplished when the pledge pin is on underwear.

Oh see...yeah I understand about the whole wearing 24/7 if you wear it on a shirt or something...I would graciously do that. But the way it was explained to us was that We are to wear it on our underwear because NO ONE is to know that we are pledges of this sorority....if someone from rush (or our friends) were to ask "hey what happened to you and Sorority X?" We were supposed to say that we dropped out. No one was to know until the end of our pledge process when we crossed. We couldn't show pride for the sorority because we were never supposed to affiliate with them. We could say "hi" to the girls during school, but never talk to them. We couldn't say that we were new members of Sorority X or even say anything about Sorority X.

That was the explanation given to us about why we had to wear the pledge pin on our bra. And I totally agree with you, nothing is accomplished with a pledge pin on the underwear...but that rule wasn't made by me. They used the old excuse "well it happened to me, so its gonna happen to you."

What was accomplished by keeping a big lie during your pledge period? I mean, do you think it was a good experience or a negative one?

I refused to continue...so I left that sorority. Because we had to stay quiet I thought of it as a NEGATIVE experience. I mean, if we had to do a fundraiser (only the pledges, the sisters were never involved unless they came to check up) we had to lie and create an organization so that we could get people to buy our stuff. We couldn't just say "well we are pledges of sorority X and we are having a fundraiser to help pay dues" we had to say that we are helping out Such-and-such charity or this-and-that organization. I felt sooooooo bad doing that, I just wanted to tell the truth, but one of the pledges was a cousin to one of the sorority sisters and she told the sisters EVERYTHING, and so if we said we were pledges of Sorority X we were automatically dropped from the pledge process.

yeah, see, that there is wrong, im glad you dropped