Amen!

Well, I never post in heated topics on GC, but I'm feeling a little feisty today, so here I go...

As a Californian (a state with a VERY high population of illegal immigrants)and as a liberal Catholic , illegal immigrants are a, for lack of a better term, a necessary evil. Come visit me in California and I'll take to you Ventura county so you can observe the migrant illegal agriculture workers. These people work twelve hour days, bent over all those lovely strawberries you will eat this season, for minimum wage (if lucky) in the blistering sun. Whereas, in Central America, they can work the same, if not longer hours, for a whopping nine dollars a DAY (yes, this is factual information from my UCLA History of U.S. Immigration class). As "Christians", tell me why you don't believe these people should be allowed to obtain the best life for themselves they can, or as a "Christian" , why you shouldn't help those less fortunate as Christ did and calls all Christians to do. Conservatives (and some of my best friends, by the way) always fall back on the "fact" illegal immigrants are a bane on our economy and our societal sytems, but as Rudey illustrated, they are far from it.
So, we've come to the conclusion, people, who came here just like your ancestors, shouldn't be given the same consideration and "pursuit of happiness"... wait I thought this was what the U.S.A stood from its inception. And from my experience working with several various social service programs and within the education system, these people are not here for the downfall and economic bankruptcy of the United States, but are here to give themselves and their children one ounce of the life you are so blessed to enjoy by doing work no "American" will do. Seriously, how many native-born Americans would work for the same wage in horrible conditions, in our society that is quickly moving away from its "blue-collar" dominated economic system?

HAHA, I just knew that someone was going to bring up the whole "your ancestors were immigrants" thing. One of the things that makes the situation different today as to back when my great great grandparents came over from Poland was that my family, even way back then, made it a point to learn english. My great great grandfather was a very smart man and knew that in order to make it in a new country that he and his family would have to embrace the American way of life and not expect Americans to learn Polish. I don't understand why I, as an American, am expected to be tolerant of the non-speaking residents. Why are there billboards in Spanish, why do ATM machines give you a choice of language. Why do I have to have some of my pay go to the education system only to fund a teacher to teach Spanish to American children?? Why does that teacher not teach English to the children who can not speak English?? We are not helping the illegal immigrants by catering to them, we are only making the situation worse. I don't care if we have millions of immigrants that come in on a daily basis, as long as they can speak English or are willing to go to classes to learn and that they are here legally!!
Oh I know that they take crap jobs that Americans just don't want to do, but that is not neccisarily the case any more. Alot of construction jobs are now going to illegals because they do it cheaper and they do not have any health benefits. I know that it is also the fault of the companies or individuals that hire out this type of help. It still does not help the situation.
Also I have had several friends and family members that have been involved in several auto accidents which were not their fault, unfortunatly they were hit by an uninsured Mexican mototist that was here illegally. Now get this, their insurance went up through no fault of their own, is that fair??
I guess what I am trying to say through all of these rambelings is that I am absolutely for immigrants coming over to America, as long as it is legal and they can speak English or are willing to learn. I believe that everyone should have a great life and be able to do all the great things that Americans get to do. And one of the ways to ensure that they have a quality life in America is to make sure that they are here legally. This way they can not be taken advantage of on their wages, they can pay into the system and get something back, and they can instill theses values into their children.
I can respect your point of view please respect mine

You are wrong on all account. Sorry that your knowledge is limited.

Well, she obviously knows that her knowledge is limited, hence why she refuses to respond to the thread ;)

You know, if it was okay to make arguments and present things as fact with absolutely NO proof to back them up, my job would be SO much easier.

I guess they'd find someone else they don't agree with to pick on because of a simple mistake. :rolleyes:

I think Conniebama just exceeded the site's bandwidth limit for logical fallacies - but just in case, I submit for your approval:

citations, please

Hey, you can love your God all you want, just like I can - but it is completely inappropriate to infer that the US is a Christian nation. That's absurd, inane, and completely goes against the values of Christianity and of our nation. Seriously, what is so difficult to understand about this? How can you take out-of-context quotations and try to 'prove' an argument post hoc? I'm about to puke here.

Even if she did use citations, she would probably still be ripped apart by those who don't agree, so what's the point? They would immediately be dismissed as false or random or whatever else.

apparantly you share her ability to predict the future and what might have been.

It's funny, half of the people ripping her so-called-logic apart SHARE many of her beliefs and values and are conservatives themselves.

She has made statements to support her claims that are blatantly false or out of context. When called out in response to the falsity of those statements, she refuses to post from the thread. To me that indicates not having enough information to support her claims and knowing that she is wrong but won't admit it.

In the "real" world you can't do stuff like that, and you're going to get called on it. If it was a liberal pulling shit out of their ass like that I'd say the same thing as well.

Amazing isn't it. :D

Holy crap this is getting ugly . . . let's try it in the simplest possible fashion:

THE POINTS SHE'S MAKING CAN ONLY BE ACCEPTED AS TRUE OR 'WHATEVER ELSE' IF SHE PROVIDES CITATIONS AND SHOWS AN UNDERSTANDING OF CONTEXT, TO PROVE THE QUOTATIONS ARE NOT FALSE, RANDOM, OR WHATEVER ELSE.

Side note: how on Earth can Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians, the most OVERREPRESENTED group in the USA (possibly second, to the elderly), act like everyone's "out to get them"? Mind-bending.

No, she wouldn't. Maybe there would be people who would disagree with her, but that is the point of debate, am I right?

It doesn't matter if she's liberal, conservative or whatever. It's a matter of backing up one's assertions.

We are. We have special Catholic meetings where we plan to get those guys. That's why all the people who see the Virgin Mary in their grilled cheese live down south. We're trying to corrupt them. We're going to get the northern ones with too much beer.

Should we create a special thread where we show how to argue over an issue?

If someone is ok with abortion for girls he knocks up by mistake but is pro-life for others, does that make him a bad person?

-Rudey