well said Sarah :)

The only way a college or university can restrict freedom of speech is if it's apart of a classroom assignment. Apparently, this wasn't apart of a class.

Please cite stats for this little tidbit.

In fact EVERY study I have ever seen shows that WHITE FEMALES actually are the main benefactor of AA.

And MereMere, your example is just laughable. I mean he got a HIGHER PAYING JOB IN THE SUBURBS. So what on earth is your point??

Seriously, your logic is so fallacious I will try to let you dig yourself deeper before I truly pick it apart.

In the UNT newspaper ... the College Republicans on this campus were planning a similar bake sale, but cancelled it due to the SMU bake sale controversy.

LibraSoul/sugar and spice,
While I applaud your conviction and your ability to bring up relevant points, I really have to, at this point, question your sanity. Why in the WORLD would you keep coming back to this conversation when it is obvious people have their minds made up??? S&S posted an article, in the Wall Street Journal no less, that confirms that discrimination is a problem in hiring (at least in Wisconsin --a northern state at that! :eek: ) and that names play at least some part in the hiring of otherwise qualified candidates, but what do you get back?

Well, my husband wanted to work for this firestation and he was passed over for a minority and ((HORRORS)) he had to SETTLE for a better paying job in the surburbs! CRY ME A RIVER! :rolleyes:

If we want to talk antedotes, let's try this one. My father was a teacher/assistant basketball coach at the "black" high school in my home town for about 15 years. His JV teams were frequently city champs and had great records. He applied to ever open head coaching job in the same town during that time period and was turn down for less experienced white coaches. He finally filed a law suit against the city and was hired as head basketball coach for what was then a predominately (about 90%) white HS. He went on to win 6 Georgia state championships and was runner up on 2 other occasions. He's had teams that were nationally ranked by USA Today. He's coached--in various all star games and tourneys including the premier HS all star game--the McDonald's All American game-- many of the NBA stars today. Too bad none of that means anything since he was an Affirmative Action hire.

I can't remember what song it was in, but "give it up, turn it loose".

Could it be that the interviewers simply did not like him? You know there's many other reasons why employers don't hire people...besides race and qualification.

I doubt his race was a factor, it is Dallas afterall.

I definately agree.

There is no real way of knowing why he wasn't hired, so we can't just assume it is because of his race or gender.

I feel like this example is somewhat like sorority rush. Sometimes when say "SuzyQ." gets cut from a house during recruitment, only the sisters who were present during the Membership Selection Session know the real reason why she was cut. It could have been grades, it could have been because she seemed like she didn't want to be at their recruitment party, it could have been because of a number of things, but the point is that only the sisters in the session know why she was cut. It isn't right for "SuzyQ." to automatically assume she was cut because of her race or because of anythign else, when there is no way of her really knowing that.

Unless they flat out said something like "we're not going to hire you because you're not a woman or a minority" there is no way he (or *anyone*) could have known for sure that is why he was not hired.

Good point Dionysus...

This principle could be a factor behind anyone NOT being hired. Just because a black man does not get a job and a white guy does, does not mean the employer has race issues.

holy crap people - didn't y'all read the part where I said I wasn't mad about AA?

reform, that was my point and yet everyone passed over that

as for the interview~

Firefigthers don't have interviews like job interviews

1. you have to meet the pre req's (ie: education, age etc....)
2. you then take a physical exam
3. personal interview
4. mental test - polygraph
5. drug test

He didn't even make it to the interview - we know now it was because of race because his classmate (#4 in the class I might add) was hispanic and got the job.....hmmmm.....doesn't take rocket science to figure that one out. Besides, he just finished his MICU ride outs with Dallas and even the firemen themselves admit to AA run amuck in Dallas!


All of that is irrelevent. I have no statistics, I have a job and family so looking up statistics on AA before I post on a comment board was not going to happen. My point was that AA needed to be reformed so why is everyone so quick to jump all over my ass?

Also, whatever I know about AA is what I've learned through high school, all of college and personal experiences. I'm not an AA professor, educator or expert and I doubt anyone posting on this board can know everything there is to know about AA unless they actually worked in the LBJ administration. Opinions were expressed so I added mine, why then does that make me an idiot? I graduated high school, have a Bachelor's of Science in Nursing but I'm stupid because I don't agree with some of you? give me a break.



Edited for bad grammer caused by fast typing

There is no research to back up what you're saying. As pointed out, white females benefit much more from affirmative action than people of color. And if you look around, you will notice that many of the reasons that AA was put into place -- wage gap between men and women, wage gap between whites and minorities, very few women and people of color in positions of power -- still exist. AA has done an okay job at fixing the percentage of POC and women in the workforce and in education, and has made some strides in the aforementioned areas, but there is still a lot of change that needs to happen.

Furthermore, personal stories do not equal concrete evidence. (Neither do statistics, for that matter, but they are closer.) I've seen this in a lot of posts, not just here, and it's driving me crazy. If I wanted to argue the point that convicted murderers should be released from prison to take care of babies, I could probably find a murderer that is great with kids and use him to prove my point . . . however, that doesn't mean that is true as a whole. :p

You also don't know why your husband wasn't hired. A well-cited example of this is the Bakke case that allowed the use of quotas -- this kid had applied to med school twice, had great stats (much higher than the minority statistics), and was rejected both times. He later sued (and won), claiming that he didn't get in because the med school saved 16 of its 100 students for minorities. The thing that anti-AAers don't like to mention is that Bakke's statistics were also much higher than the WHITE students who were accepted. So obviously the admissions committee found something lacking in Bakke (besides race!), despite his scores, and passed him over. The same thing happens today. We can't guess why -- even if you don't make it to the interview phase, even if you just turn in an application, there could be things on it that might show them that you're not right for the job. Maybe you don't have enough experience. Maybe you make stupid spelling mistakes and they question your intelligence. Maybe they called a reference who said "Oh yeah, so and so's a great guy and a hard worker BUT . . . " and you weren't what they were looking for. And yeah, maybe you weren't the right race. But who knows?

And to whomever it was that was questioning my sanity, I have often questioned it over the course of this thread. :p But I think it's important to point out when someone's logic is faulty or they're not making legitimate points, or they're relying on tired rhetoric which isn't true (anybody who truly believes that white males are the most discriminated-against subsection of this country needs to do some research!). I know there are people that are tired of this issue, and that's fine -- they can skip over it. I think anybody who's been on GC for more than a few weeks knows what a race issue discussion here is likely to consist of.

Out of curiosity -- I have asked this once and got no answers -- for those of you that advocate reform, HOW do you suggest AA be reformed? I see a lot of people pushing for reform, but no suggestions as to how to effectively do it.

I don't understand why we can't just post opinions and discuss them rather them cut everyone else down.

I didn't have any concrete evidence because, like I already posted, I'm not an AA expert nor did I ever claim to be. Instead, I posted just one personal experience with AA.

Bethany1982 I think already stated that AA should be based on ability not race - there is one way it could be reformed.

THat would be me! I should have added that I give you a lot of credit for sticking to your guns and havign the patience to deal with this. I don't anymore. I've sat at what my friends and I call "the Black Desk" i.e. if you have questions about the Black race at work/school, see the friendly Negro at the Black Desk!, too many times and I just don't have the energy to get into these discussions any more.

This arguement...
 

A previously blatant racist government must take actions to correct the discriminations of the past--or how can it truly call itself a democracy??? "Home of the free and the brave..." That "all men are created equal... " But they had slaves... And justified the murder of millions in the indigenious populations... Where is the retribution? Where is the day of reconciliation? What will it take to end it? Blood? That seems to solve many a problem throughout the world... But is that where we really want our society and civilization to go?

Affirmative action as it currently stands is all we got until time shows us or God shows us alternatives... I do not know what alternatives there will be. But there must be some, somewhere. In fact, some in the African American community think that if "the American government pays reparations, then the affirmative action debacle will be put asunder..." But that is what some think...

Otherwise, let us label it what some people of color already know what it is: the arguments against affirmative action is just blatant White Supremacy--skrait up... It is no different that being a Kard Karry Kind of member to be against affirmative action. That is exactly what many underrepresented folks think--because, really, I am NOT a minority--I just am taxed without representation in my district...

But, if I argue in that point, folks will flame me left and right... Many just cannot accept that they have bigotries... That they have inane biases based completely on stereotypes, which begin as false assumptions and lies, anyway. And one does not have to be African American or caucasian to be a bigot...

From a Spiritual standpoint--the real reason why we need affirmative action:

You base "life" merely on ability, test scores, recipient of numerous awards within a chosen field--accolade after accolade...

But will any of your accomplishments get you into the Christian "Heaven"???

Because the last time I read the Bible, one can only get into Heaven though Jesus Christ... The Blood of Christ, the Word of Christ--NOT BY DEED!!! It is quicker for a rich man to get through an EYE OF A NEEDLE, than it is for him to get into Heaven... "You can only get into Heaven but through me...", etc., etc. etc....

And if Jesus Christ gives me affirmative action EVERY DAY, then how come you can't or won't???

And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ----Oh, so you ARE THE DEVIL...

Just wanted to know who I was dealing with...

Now that I know what Principalities I am working with, then I know this is a BATTLE over good versus evil...

You all can say it is bogus--but these are the same Europeans that landed on this site of the planet and forced all non-Europeans to believe in those doctrines... So what do you say about those doctrines, now? Those are some of YOUR FOREFATHERS... Not mine... You would deny your heritage, NOW? Of all places, NOW?

Aw man AKA_monet, you started out so well, and then you quickly descended into insanity. There are such things as religious bigots too. You might want to check yourself out for that.

Please don't use that route to defend AA, it really doesn't help.