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Quote:

Originally Posted by katydidKD (Post 2099872)

Haven't read all of the posts, but there is something to be said for trade-type jobs. People have uppity views.
A lot of those jobs are incredibly secure. Many skilled workers make more than people with four year degrees. Some people are just "above" being a plumber, even though they make relatively good money. Not to mention, you cannot outsource electricians and plumbers. As long as people use toilets and electricity, you need them and their special skills. Moreover, if you do well, you can move up into a supervisory position or even start your own business and have unlimited potential. Those are just two examples.

The problem with trades is that they are mostly populated by people who were pegged as not smart enough for higher education. The man who holds the Master Plumber license in our company and is retired and in his 60s. He's said to me that today, anyone who is smart enough to become a plumber is smart enough NOT to become a plumber. The result is a bunch of high school dropout laborers who eventually (if they're lucky) learn the system and apply for a license. I would say that at my company, out of 5 guys with licenses we have 1 that has enough brains and foresight to actually run a job on his own. Everyone else is a combination of braincells that eventually with enough trips to the supply house manage to monkey something together that kinda holds water. Because they don't have the planning skills to think about what they will need in advance nor the leadership skills to delegate to their crew, they end up wasting time and money and going way over budget. This is not unique to our guys or my company.

All this to say that trades need more SKILLED, INTELLIGENT people. If some of those 99% would like to put their brains to use, there's room over here. And yes, they can make a good wage. Most of the licensed guys make more than me, and would potentially make a lot more of they were rockstars at their job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *winter* (Post 2099942)

Trade schools here are hurting for people to apply- while 4 year college population grows each year, to the point that new dorms and buildings are being constructed to handle the overflow.

Irony is...the trades are screaming for applicants. We have an electrical program here (the technical name escapes me.) It was started in this area specifically to address the unemployment and/or untrained issue, and it was tailored around the needs of the employers, who were begging for qualified applicants. Still...every year, they face low enrollment. :confused:

How much easier, how much clearer does it all have to be? In the articles I've read, they always mention students (HS seniors) "looking down" on trade schools, as if this represents settling, or taking the "dumb" path in life. Nothing could be further from the truth! "Dumb" is paying out the wazoo with LOANS to finance an education that is obsolete, just to prove to the world that you got a Bachelors' degree.

One of the "scarier" aspects of some of these programs (and the water/wastewater industry, which I am closely involved) is that it involves...dun dun dunnnnn...MATH and SCIENCE! And people run screaming in droves from that. The applicants I've worked with in water plants, who were dedicated to learning the profession and passing the certification exam, have generally had few issues. It's not such a steep learning curve that it's impossible, but it seems to be very intimidating to people who don't like math and science.

Just in general, this whole protest is starting to bug me.

As a veteran, it really p*sses me off to see people whose avitars are upside down flags (when we still have soldiers in active war zones ATM!) I know it's "freedom of speech" but have some freaking respect- people are currently fighting so you can sit and complain that millionaires don't pay enough taxes.

Then there is some video of people pushing through a police barracade, and the police being, well- police. All the cries of lawsuits and (this really set my teeth on edge) "it's as bad as it was in the 60s!" No...in the 60's people were shot. In the 60's people had fire hoses turned on them when they were simply peacefully protesting. Nice try, though.

So...now we have the cost of daily police of these areas, AND the lawsuits which will arise. How much is this costing?!?! When we did the G20 crowd control in Pittsburgh, for less than a week, the price tag was (if memory serves) around 5 million, maybe more. What else could a city do with 5 million dollars? Hm, maybe beef up its science and math education so people won't be afraid to enter technical programs which require these skills? :rolleyes: As a government employee, I freaking wish someone would hand me a 5 million dollar grant- I could make a lot of things happen for a lot of people. Permanent things- water lines, permanent access to clean water, sewage, fire protection.

I just can't get past the idea that it's wasting precious resources. All the 99 percent who pay the taxes are going to have to pay even more. Genius!

Could you use the regular black for your longer posts? I'm having a hard time reading them.

I agree that technical schools are looked down upon when they shouldn't necessarily be. I, however, am extremely biased since I have an interest in folks enrolling in technical schools.

I disagree on the "wasteful" aspect of this. This is free speech in action. If everyone who exercised their free-speech rights were "respectful" (which, by the way, is subjective) nothing would get done. Women who protested for the right to vote were seen as disrespectful, btw, as were men and women who demonstrated during the civil rights movement.

Just because YOU see it as "wasteful" doesn't mean that folks using their voices to speak out against whatever of the 8 million things they're against right now doesn't mean that it necessarily is. I supported the bulk of the rioters in Pittsburgh (besides, Pittsburgh and specifically Pitt's campus riots almost once a year). I support the bulk of the views of the Occupy Whatever Street movement because I'm part of the 99%, too. I'm not unemployed, I'm not unhappy necessarily, but I'm also extremely privileged. My privilege does not mean, however, that there are not some serious systemic inequality problems in our society.

When we talk about "wasteful," let's talk about paying the salary of members of the House of Representatives who skip out on voting 88 times in a row while campaigning for the Republican nomination (I'm lookin' at you, Michele Bachmann). Or the millions of dollars we're throwing to defense contractors while our soldiers are struggling to make ends meet. There are a TON of wasteful things the government spends their money on every day. I happen to think keeping protests and movements secure via the police is a lot less wasteful than a number of things.

Also, since police officers are part of the 99%, at least they get an opportunity to earn some overtime.

Well, that part was a joke, DrPhil. I think my sarcasm is broken.

The problem comes in when the municipalities are already distressed to the point that overtime is going to really take its toll.

And I just hate stupid lawsuits in general, I imagine they will abound from this mele. People antagonize the police until they have to use force, then they cry about it. The reason we didn't have to use force in PGH is because the protests were peaceful. Yeah a few dumb college students broke a few windows, but that was the extent of it. The actual protesters were very respectful.

Hey, I go paid to sit in a tent for 5 days...so it wasn't a bad deal for me. Plus 5 days of training that I never had to use.

The training is tailored around NOT using force if possible. It gets to the point where you are praying everyone does what they are supposed to, because if a soldier has to take someone down...that is actually dreaded, because you know you will be on YouTube as the new face of government brutality.

I know there are some crooked cops who just want to beat someone with a club, but the majority would rather be doing their regular job...they are part of the 99% too but in these situations they get lumped into the "enemy" category by some...

Quote:

Originally Posted by agzg (Post 2099987)

Well, that part was a joke, DrPhil. I think my sarcasm is broken.

LOL. I was just giving your joke some illustrations.

I laughed at an msn comment that read something like "it's time for these kids to go back to their parents' basements." I found that hilarious although I would never want to discredit these movements and reduce these protestors to silly kids.

Quote:

Originally Posted by *winter* (Post 2099991)

The problem comes in when the municipalities are already distressed to the point that overtime is going to really take its toll.

And I just hate stupid lawsuits in general, I imagine they will abound from this mele. People antagonize the police until they have to use force, then they cry about it. The reason we didn't have to use force in PGH is because the protests were peaceful. Yeah a few dumb college students broke a few windows, but that was the extent of it. The actual protesters were very respectful.

Hey, I go paid to sit in a tent for 5 days...so it wasn't a bad deal for me. Plus 5 days of training that I never had to use.

The training is tailored around NOT using force if possible. It gets to the point where you are praying everyone does what they are supposed to, because if a soldier has to take someone down...that is actually dreaded, because you know you will be on YouTube as the new face of government brutality.

I know there are some crooked cops who just want to beat someone with a club, but the majority would rather be doing their regular job...they are part of the 99% too but in these situations they get lumped into the "enemy" category by some...

I'd argue that the bolded is not always true and we can see multiple videos of it. No, all police are not the enemy, but peoples views of the police tend to be based on their personal, family and community experiences with police, not necessarily on the statistical reality.

Thanks, *winter*, for the black text. I appreciate it.

IIRC, some of the arrests in relation to the OWS protest happened when the police corralled them into a small area on a bridge. What to do there? Had they not been corralled, I don't think they would have "antagonized" the police.

But of course, that's if you think they did the antagonizing. I happen to think that in that case, the city/police did it.

Yeah, and of course it can be done on either side, the provocation. Since many of the videos have sketchy sound quality and no narration.

I just know from my experience, the majority of the people I've worked with in this situation just saw taking someone down as an absolute last resort and potential paperwork nightmare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by agzg (Post 2099999)

Are you talking about the Brooklyn Bridge arrests? I wouldn't say that the police corralled them.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/01/140983...rooklyn-bridge

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001 (Post 2100042)

Are you talking about the Brooklyn Bridge arrests? I wouldn't say that the police corralled them.

http://www.npr.org/2011/10/01/140983...rooklyn-bridge

What would you call a large group of people being surrounded by orange netting, then?

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ooklyn-bridge/

Should the OWS protesters have been on the roadway? Probably not, but how else could the police arrest that many people at the same time other than to corral them?

Occupy Someone's Street goes international. Demonstrators in Rome torch cars and smash shop windows. Arrest those idiots. Tell those idiots that doing violent protests and acting stupid only provides "I told ya so" evidence to those who think this is a stupid movement.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44912532/ns/world_news/

http://col.stb.s-msn.com/i/BD/8B3D55...D7D4BA4FBE.jpg

:rolleyes:

http://col.stb.s-msn.com/i/87/AEF29E...4539E3C334.jpg

This makes the protests in America seem calm even with the police tackling and arresting some people.

I have read some reports that state a group of Anarchists are responsible for much of the serious damage committed by the protestors. Apparently it's a group that is relatively well known in Rome.

This is the one thing that scares me about mass protests, anyone can join and they don't always have the same goals as those planning the events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2100143)

Occupy Someone's Street goes international. Demonstrators in Rome torch cars and smash shop windows. Arrest those idiots. Tell those idiots that doing violent protests and acting stupid only provides "I told ya so" evidence to those who think this is a stupid movement.

Yup, they started occupying/protesting in The Netherlands today. At the protest in my town there were about 10 people present.