[QUOTE=UGAalum94;2077432]PiKA2001 and dekeguy, alas, my friend doesn't read Greekchat. He's more a protesting at the former School of the Americas than greek message board kind of dude.

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Protesting is fine with me, its what the Army protects to ensure one's rights to do just that. It would however make a bit more sense to me if he protested against something still in existance as opposed to the FORMER School of the Americas. If he doesn't like our current international operational involvements perhaps he should protest at the Dept of Defense or the White House or even stand for election to Congress so he could do something rather than complain about it!
[dekeguy]
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I'm already pretty positive about JROTC, but I hope some other people read your messages![UGAalum94]
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Please spread the word. Its important that people understand why we need programs like JROTC. It is by no means a brainwashing program to turn out little tin soldiers but rather an opportunity for young people to gain insights into responsibility, leadership, duty, and maturity.
dekeguy

Yay more dead people! That's the sort of line that works when one is IN the military, and I can see why, but isn't particularly motivational outside of it to someone like me.

My guys aren't becoming cops or firefighters either. I firmly believe that most people of all backgrounds don't want those accolades, they want to support their families. They can demonstrate many positive character qualities along the way, to be sure, but they don't need or want to prove their courage or get a gold star for it.

Aye but you were speaking in general to and about people outside of the military, it's not like I thought you were lacking in understanding of the risks.

Um, good for you guys?
This rather ignores that there are now more suicides in Afghanistan than combat deaths. Someone with full PTSD doesn't just deal with it and things get better. Their families generally suffer along the way and there has not been support available to them until relatively recently. The VA is just learning to handle having women vets receiving regular services.

A recent study showed half of veterans in college have suicidal thoughts, a third have severe anxiety and a quarter are depressed. Symptoms were found as clinically significant (that is they were severe and diagnosable) and 45% showed clinical signs of PTSD. We're just not doing enough to help them and brushing it off as "It's Life, Deal with it" does a serious disservice to those service members.
As I said, I'm not against programs like the JROTC or the military itself. That doesn't mean we should ignore the demographics of the military and the reasons for it.

dekeguy, I love to read your posts, but it would be a lot easier to follow them if you'd ditch the ======== and use the http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums...tons/quote.gif. ;)

[QUOTE=Drolefille;2077568]Yay more dead people! That's the sort of line that works when one is IN the military, and I can see why, but isn't particularly motivational outside of it to someone like me.
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Aww, I thought you would pick up on that somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment. No one really believes it is sweet and proper to die for your country, and no one wants to go home in a rubber bag. That was more of a sardonic crack than a motivational rallying cry. [dekeguy]
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My guys aren't becoming cops or firefighters either. I firmly believe that most people of all backgrounds don't want those accolades, they want to support their families. They can demonstrate many positive character qualities along the way, to be sure, but they don't need or want to prove their courage or get a gold star for it. [Drolefille]
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Please tell me you don't really believe that soldiers serve and go in harm's way for ribbons and medals. Of course people really just want to support their families and make a life for themselves and those they care about.
I suspect we are discussing related but fundamentally different aspects of this thread. I was responding to the 'cannon fodder' anti-JROTC position and you, I think, are responding to the opportunities (or lack thereof) open to those you are helping. I would, however, suggest that anyone who has a 'record' but is trying to be a solid citizen could get help from military recruiters who are under pressure to find enlistees. If the guy has a really terrible record and no mitigating circumstances then he would be unsuitable but if he is a guy who made a mistake, even a big one, but is now clean and squared away there are avenues available to him. [dekeguy]
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Aye but you were speaking in general to and about people outside of the military, it's not like I thought you were lacking in understanding of the risks. [Drolefille]
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Agreed, and I hope my comments could be read by anyone who had little or no knowledge of the military and be able to easily follow what I was saying. [dekeguy]
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Um, good for you guys?
This rather ignores that there are now more suicides in Afghanistan than combat deaths. Someone with full PTSD doesn't just deal with it and things get better. Their families generally suffer along the way and there has not been support available to them until relatively recently. The VA is just learning to handle having women vets receiving regular services. [Drolefille]
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Goes to my argument that training, maturity, and savvy are crucial in all soldiers and most crucially important in all leaders. Suicide suggests to me that the soldier was ill prepared for the stress of war and poorly led by under-prepared officers and NCOs. If one of my troopers took his own life I would consider that I had failed to train him, lead him, socialize him into the brotherhood of soldiers where we stand together and there is no time limit for these bonds to exist. I'll have to tell you about calls my Dad gets from some of his troopers who served with him before I was even born. (Which reminds me, your PM mail box is full).
Yes, families do suffer. Haven't you seen 't'shirts that say 'Army Wife' 'The toughest job you will ever have' Or 'Army Brat' 'Not easy but doggone proud'
Read Libby Custer's "My Life on the Plains" which addresses the stress and pain of family life in the Army. It was written in the late 1870s.
As to female veterans, we have had women in the Army for a long time but the numbers are far greater now. Not surprising the VA has to learn some new skills for these Vets. [dekeguy]
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A recent study showed half of veterans in college have suicidal thoughts, a third have severe anxiety and a quarter are depressed. Symptoms were found as clinically significant (that is they were severe and diagnosable) and 45% showed clinical signs of PTSD. We're just not doing enough to help them and brushing it off as "It's Life, Deal with it" does a serious disservice to those service members. [Drolefille]
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Mostly agree, but again, my limited experience suggests that a coheasive well led outfit provides a continuing support system for those who face death and far worse on a regular basis. All soldiers accept the fact the PTSD is real and all of us will experience it to some degree. We do however consider that the real brotherhood in a combat unit makes suicide an act viewed as a sense of breaking caste. Sometimes 'Deal with it' means go get some help from the medical guys. Sometimes it means reach down into your guts and find your character. Life is tough and sometimes you need help, just don't crack when your brothers are counting on you when the bullets are flying.
[dekeguy]
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As I said, I'm not against programs like the JROTC or the military itself. That doesn't mean we should ignore the demographics of the military and the reasons for it.[Drolefille]
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On that I agree 100% [dekeguy]

^^^ Oy!

To repeat:
And if you're wanting to quote more than one post, just click on http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums...iquote_off.gif in each post you want to quote (and watch it turn red), then click on http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums...tons/quote.gif or http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums...tons/reply.gif and voila! All the posts you want to quote will be there.

Please!

But that sounds awfully like techno savvy and dekes are not geeks! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Ergo, if dekes do it, it's not geeky. ;)

Dekeguy may consider the jacked up posts to be his "thing." LOL. As a result, I don't read his posts if they are more than a few sentences.

If geeks do it, its not dekey?

As you probably know I can't pass up a straight line or a chance for a pun or wisecrack. Sorry.

Yay for using the quote feature.

Slow learner, but we plod along!

I actually asked
 

I took it with tongue in cheek, and yet all I see in it is tragedy.



I'd suspect very few are in it for the glory/ribbons/medals etc and hopefully most of those get shaped up before they get shipped out.
My guys don't have 'records' they have records. Felonys, typically drug or violent. See the second post though for some insight from them. I'm only aware of one time when someone came in and wanted to be in the military so bad that they had a recruiter come to our office and they worked things out with him. I don't know what his offense was.

However, I can understand how some people would see our soldiers as if they're being treated like cannon-fodder, particularly if the people who enlist are doing so for the money/schooling and it being the only way to support their families. It feels less 'volunteer' at some point when those pressures exist. Not that there's a solution per se. (Though sometimes Heinlein sounds right after all...)


They were, they just omitted the other side of things.
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Trained, mature and savvy soldiers commit suicide or consider it.
Not that preparation can't help, but I don't think that's true. Would you say suicidal teens are the fault of parents and teachers? Intervention can help, but mental illness is mental illness.

Many people would have similar feelings of blame and responsibility, they don't belong there.
Ah bother thanks, I'd cleared it and then it filled up without me realizing because I never empty the damned thing.



A recent study showed half of veterans in college have suicidal thoughts, a third have severe anxiety and a quarter are depressed. Symptoms were found as clinically significant (that is they were severe and diagnosable) and 45% showed clinical signs of PTSD. We're just not doing enough to help them and brushing it off as "It's Life, Deal with it" does a serious disservice to those service members. [Drolefille]
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Agreed, for a definition of PTSD/PTSS.

And do you see how this view might discourage your brothers from speaking up and seeking help? Seeing suicide as dishonorable doesn't prevent suicide, it means increased shame for suicidal thoughts and for the survivors.

Fix those quotes, Drolefille. :eek:

Oy done, but i left some of the = because i'm lazy.

/still haven't emptied the PM box, another oy.