I was counting on you to add your two cents! It's been a couple years since I've been to PSU.

Right, and I think the DZ housing situation was exceptionally bad. But I don't think it EVER would have been okay with a university, and that actually colleges probably used to be even more involved in student housing decisions than they are today.

( I don't think the last 20 years have changed things that much. If you went back even further, however, you might find a time when more schools guaranteed and supervised or expected supervision of student housing. If everyone has to be in the dorm at a certain hour and checked in with the dorm monitor, I think it would be unlikely that they'd be as cavalier as DZ was about the housing at DePauw, but we're talking more than 20 years ago to get to those days.)

I think increasing concerns about liability have changed a lot about the way we all live now and do our jobs. I'm not sure that it's worse for sororities because of concerns about being PC or looking bad, but maybe I'm wrong.

I think that it's possible that in the past a group might have gotten away with something like the DePauw incident a little easier than they did today, but I disagree about the reasons why.

About the moms and dads comment: it seems to me that in general a greater percentage of college kids rely on their parents for more and more help running their day to day lives. It may not be true for you or on your campus, and one of the things that surprised me about the DePauw deal was how the parents weren't part of the story at all. In any other story about problems with greek life: hazing, risk management, whatever, the moms and dads figure in. When you read about differences that college professors identify with students today versus students in the past, they mention parents calling to complain about grades. I regret mentioning it in the DePauw context, and I didn't mean it as an accusation about you or your school, but it's one of those comparing then and now things that's interesting to me.

ETA: I'm not casting any stones on the parents deal: I've always been someone to talk to my parents a lot. I don't mean getting them to intervene for me. But we're close, even today. There's nothing wrong with parents advising their offspring, but they shouldn't still be taking care of a lot of stuff for their kids if the kids are in college or beyond, and that seems to be what people complain about: parents calling advisers, greek life coordinators about bad rush results, HR directors at the first job, etc. I'm a little surprised that no angry mom or dads have surfaced in the reporting about DePauw if all the stories about "helicopter parents" going to college are true.

The parents thing is a weird and random digression and I apologize.

I think a large reason parents figure in more these days is because of the price of college. My mom and I went to the same school and we both had half scholarships. She was able to make up the rest in working part-time and a few grand in federal loans. I had to take out five figures of federal loans, worked part-time, and had to get help from my parents. She paid off her loans within 5 years of graduation. There's no way I'd be able to do that.

Yeah, the cost of college is said to have increased at a rate far beyond inflation. It's interesting that you can compare within your own family so directly.

(I think that the perhaps "over-involvement" of parents is part of a broader societal trend, but maybe it is about the expense of raising kids and college is one aspect.)

the lawsuit is a bad idea
 

I think that some folks posting to this thread are a little too concerned with legality. That is, many are defending Delta Zeta National's actions, simply because they were legal, and at least a few are decrying DePauw's expulsion of Delta Zeta as illegal (in violation of their agreement). Let's face facts, for most people, perceptions are reality, and certainly most people perceive the actions taken by the Delta Zeta National Organization to be at least poorly executed, if not actually illegal or unethical. Similarly, most people perceive DePauw's response as appropriate, even if it stretches the bounds of legality. Please note that I do not have the expertise to pass an opinion on the merits of the lawsuit from a legal standpoint, but from a public perception standpoint, it is clearly a loser. It remains to be seen exactly how Delta Zeta in particular and Greek organizations in general will be affected, but I have a hard time seeing anything positive coming out of this situation, regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit.

Full disclosure: I came to this thread looking for a link to the text of the lawsuit. I am neither an active nor alumni member of a fraternity. My interest in this matter? As the saying goes, my daughter - and my money - go to DePauw. She is a freshman who intends to pledge a sorority, but has decided for a variety of reasons to wait until her sophomore year. My feeling is that parents are much more involved in their children's lives on campus than they were a million years ago when I was in college; surf the net for articles on "helicopter parents" for some back up. I'm doing my best to resist the impulse to run my daughter's life on campus. We've talked about the Delta Zeta situation, but no more than exchanging opinions on what happened and why.

cjr

Are you saying that the Omicron chapter of DZ at Pitt recolonized while you were there? If so, as a fellow alum, I was not aware of that. DZ always had the largest number of members on campus during the 70's, so that would surprise me. I know that TriSig came back to Pitt about 1975 or so and KD came back in the late 70's or early 80's. Both of them had been gone for many years. Or were you saying that another present sorority on the campus recolonized successfully in the '80's?

CJR - I've looked in vain for any post that suggested the lawsuit was a good idea. Or, for that matter, that Delta Zeta handled the initial situation well. As the saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right. I know that my personal concern about Depauw's actions is the idea that a university or college can summarily kick off an organization that has a long history and a substantial investment on that campus without some sort of due process.
I understand why Depauw did what it did - I just wish they had handled it differently. It's the same thing I wish about Delta Zeta - I understand needing to reorganize - I just wish it had been handled in a more sensitive manner.
I hope while you are doing research about GLOs you will look at some of the positive threads here. I know that most GC members would not trade their experience in their GLO for anything. I hope your daughter finds a home in one of the fine sororities at Depauw.

That is what KR meant. If she had meant her chapter of DZ I would assume she would have said "we" instead of "they."

For cjr
 

"Full disclosure: I came to this thread looking for a link to the text of the lawsuit. I am neither an active nor alumni member of a fraternity. My interest in this matter? As the saying goes, my daughter - and my money - go to DePauw. cjr[/quote]"


I have text of the lawsuit but it is as a pdf file and I can't copy a link here. I will try and see if I can figure a way to private message it to you, or exchange emails.

I am a former DZ from DePauw (older than most of you posting here for sure). I've had a few chuckles at your debates on what things were like in the '80s. I can tell you that even before that, things were pretty much exactly the same as they are now. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

I also know that the Greek situation at DePauw is far different than it is at most schools. With over 70% Greek, being in a house is just about like living in a different housing unit. There are very few dorms, and few apartments off campus. Greencastle is a tiny town. Being evicted midyear would present a huge problem in housing in a very small time window.

Frisbee
DZ, DePauw
Long ago and far away

"Life is a long walk uphill. Drop the Rocks."

Robert G. Bottoms, DePauw's President Since 1986, Announces Retirement Plans

Probably unrelated to the DZ debacle, but the timing is interesting ...

Wow, that's a hella long time to serve as a university president in this day and age. I didn't realize he was president when I was accepted there.

Kappa Delta reorganized a couple of years ago at Bowling Green State University. Most of the sisters in the chapter were given alumnae status, however 5 were chosen to remain active and recolonize. They left their house for a year, while the colonization team recruited a new group of members. (Housing is university owned, and of course they weren't able to fill a unit until a new group of members was secured.)

Within a year, they were back in campus housing, and they are doing well now. The BGSU student newspaper mentioned it in a recent news article, during their coverage of the DZ/DePauw incident. http://media.www.bgnews.com/media/st...-2783729.shtml

timing may be interesting but is of little to no value, there had been talk of him leaving for a few years

Delta Zeta also had a successful recolonization at UK.

There's an article from a sister of Delta Zeta at DePauw in June's Cosmo...

I found it interesting that a national, monthly magazine would run it and not just the newspapers.

Actually, not really a surprise. Although it is the New York Times, it's in many aspects a "national" newspaper. Not to mention the fact that this story was reported in countless news outlets - when something like that happens, the magazines will pick up on it as quickly as their turnaround time allows.

Don't you just love it when guys act as the know-it-all source of sorority life and functions?

So you really think that DZ's problem at Depauw could have been solved by having a longer new member period?

Give the guy a chance -- he might know more about it than you do.

He's from California so I really doubt it.

BTW...how's that owl doing? Do you have a personal grudge against ASA you're not telling us about?

Yet you know that they were deadweight dragging the national organization down? How exactly does that work?

That has nothing to do with it actually. Have you actually read anything here like the mega-thread about the whole situation, or are you just completely buying what DZ is saying officially? Also you readily admit that you don't know the chapter or the members, yet you have these magical opinions about how DZ was right and the whole chapter was wrong. Odd. Is your wife a DZ?

The same way that you automatically know he's wrong.

Eh, he's talking out of his ass and wants to go back to the days of pledge training. Coming in and declaring that he KNOWS how it is and the DZ women are just deadweight ignores the fact that not only has everyone here on GC discussed this much more indepth, but also that he doesn't know how NPC orgs work.

amen, being Greek is very much a privilege

I know he's wrong because he's blaming sorority problems on shorter new member periods.

Frankly, none of us know anything about it unless we are students at DePauw or on from the Delta Zeta National office.

It's all speculation.

Yeah ok, we get it. You've kind of been one note in this thread and I'm not sure why you're popping up now to defend some guy who lays all of it at the feet of Universities having too much control over Greeks and other stupid shite.

Sure, being Greek is a privilege, they'd already received the privilege, and removing members is different than dropping girls during recruitment.

Greeks should learn that having a chapter on campus is a privilege not a right.

From the Tau chapter of Alpha Phi Omega at the University of Florida!!!

??? :confused:

WTF does this even mean?

Bet it was posted on the wrong thread... isn't there a thread where you name what GLO and school your from...

HAHAHAH. Good point. :D

I'm sure this topic being brought back up to the top is one of the last things that people want to talk about, but an article in the back to school edition of DePauw's campus newspaper stated that basically nothing has changed from the end of school in May.

As far as house ownership, the house is still owned by the local housing corps, not DZ nationals.

DePauw's director of Greek Life was quoted as saying it's "conceivable" for national sororities to apply early this fall with the intent to be included in this year's rush, and that any action to bring another sorority to campus for 2008 rush would have have begin soon.

Is DePauw's recruitment deferred? Is "this year's rush" meaning 2007, or academic year, meaning they have deferred recruitment so technically it is in calendar year 2008?

Yes, DePauw's recruitment is deferred - the next rush is the first week of Februray 2008, the beginning of spring semester.