LBC3

I think you've got your legal terms wrong. In most states "hazing" is illegal, so the "process" you speak of may be the illegal thing of which you speak.

As DeltAlum said, we both have and are still working with our Fraternitys and Chapters. Both have been doing so for many years to try to keep our chapters on the up and up. As has been seen, many GLOs have lost chapters because of hazing.

You may disagree with anything that we say and if you do, feel free to haze away.

When something may, can, and will happen, please remember some of the words from this site and thread.

Stupid, is still stupid.

Good luck.

70 plus years and 0 hurt pledges i think that shows exactly how dangerous "Hazing" is

Zero hurt? Have you read this, or any other thead , on risk management? Just may be the case for you. Or just what you are aware of at your chapter at your school at the time you have been there.. And do you know what happens, or what has happened at your school or other chapters there?

As Delta and Tom ( and others ) have written, it is only a matter of time.

I have read all of these comments and yes, some of the SOP's that I when through could today be considered on the very outer egde of hazing. But the larger problem for GLO's and all other social, living, or activity related groups is that it only takes one very small group to do something or have something happen to cause problems for everyone else. And since the barn door is already wide open, there are so many eyes on all the groups and so many hands ready, and willing, to shut us down. Or place many controls on us.

It depends on what you are doing....period. There are plenty of ways to haze that don't involve things being dangerous or life threatening.

Brother
I agree with you on that.

However, as we have too often seen or heard, matters can and have gone too far.

Which is why Hazing is currently looked at ( even talked about here as well as other places ) with a very big, broad brush rather than a small, fine point. And for those following the Florida thread, even the State Leg. made a mess of their "ground breaking" anti-hazing law.

As I have indicated several times, some of what could have been looked on as positive learning and bonding experiences back in my day can now be looked at as possible Hazing violations.

Agree....I think just about everything that my father did during pledgeship when he was an SAE at Texas would be considered hazing now. We have it easy compared to them......

Make me GAG. The PC of some of these people make me sick.

"LBpc30 70 plus years and 0 hurt pledges i think that shows exactly how dangerous "Hazing" is "

Your history PROVES you are doing it right. KEEP it up!!!

Semper FI

I am a newly initiated brother at Kappa Sigma and through my pledging process we had to go through a Anti-Hazing Seminar. Basically stating the Universities stand on Hazing.

Hazing is against many Universities Policies and Against Many States Laws now. I know that Kappa Sigma takes a strong stance against hazing by stating: "Any Chapter found guilty of Hazing will be subject to the Executive Committe being exspelled, and the chapter being fined $5,000."

Our University also states that if found guilty of hazing that our Charter may be revoked.

Hazing may been seen as correct for such organizations as Police, Fire, Military. Yet it does not build Brotherhood/Sisterhood but a false confidence in the active brothers that they may have control over a pledge during the Pledging Process. Yet once these pledges become brothers/sisters than what will happen of that?

Sororities just don't do that, I think. They definitely don't do it here. Our new members get gifts instead of being hazed. I hear about the guys hazing, but I've never heard of any really bad stories, and most of it fits under hazing if you take the definition we have: anything the new members have to do that the initiated members do not. I have heard their side of it, and I see how SOME of it makes sense, but on the other hand I don't see how you're supposed to trust your brothers when they were doing bad things to you.

Hazing isn't always "bad."

Hazing is terrible, it should not be done under any circumstance. I think people should accept their bid, walk through the door and get their letters.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

Why would I be sarcastic about this topic?

You are an idiot. Seriously.

They have to be joking.

Your second sentence is more accurate than your first.

Yes Hazing is Terrible. But still people should not be able to just walk in get a bid and be handed letters. Letters should still be earned and pledging is to get to know who you are letting into your organization before they are your brother/sister.

Well then just outta curiousity, how do you get to know pledges when there are no situations that put them on the spot, or how do you get to see who really wants to be there? I don't support life threatening or dangerous hazing, but I don't think scavenger hunts or anything that has relevency to the chapter should be considered hazing, especially if the pledges go along with it. IMO the only way ANYTHING should be considered hazing is if the person that is being hazed is actually offended or disturbed by it and comes forward themselves, not people on the outside who have no idea what is going on. Macallen, if you think I am being serious then you are the idiot, try not to use such harsh words.

Well events such as Scavenger Hunts are not hazing. Or at least not in my book. We did a scavenger hunt with teams. Half brothers/Half Pledges and thats how we got to know each other better.

Well under florida law that could be considered hazing. Under Florida law wearing a pin can be hazing. That is the point I am trying to make, if they wanted to they could make a case out of anything being hazing. Whether it be pledge vs. brothers football game or anything like that.

That's for the individual GLO to decide. Most, if not all, NPCs consider scavenger hunts hazing.

In the early 90s my chapter was instructed by IHQ to stop doing scavenger hunts and we haven't done one ever since. I have no opinion on the matter since I really don't care either way, but I can imagine it being a huge potential risk management issue.

Brother,
As seen another thread, which while about hazing was not here, Florida law has several major holes in it.
http://www.blackpressusa.com/News/Ar...s&NewsID=11034

And, as activly discussed in RM in several threads, many of the laws while very well needed, meant, and/or wished for are rushed though with lack of clarity.

Why? Well just how often do you read about off campus houses having problems? Or dorms? You generally do not.

However, if any member or members of a GLO do anything out of "norm", the GLO is front and center in the news even if the chapter was not connected to the event or problem.

And that is just one of the many reasons.

Another one is the there are members and there are chapters that just do things that one should not do. And those members and chapters help bring "doom and gloom" on the rest of us.

And Brother, I am speaking from experience: The SAE Riot was front page news for weeks. Yet we did not riot. Two other chapters did, on our front lawn.

And much later, due to many factors such as poor leadership, drinking, and hazing, School and National pulled Charter.

Along the way, two other chapters on campus lost charters as well. Do not know their reasons.

Well, you went about trying to explain yourself in a piss poor manner.

Sorry we didn't gather from these posts that you weren't being serious.

YHO does not, at this time, count for all that much. This is, again, something that was been beaten to death here in RM.

Visit some of the other hazing threads to see why.

And as for getting to know some one, great way is to put one's hand out and say HI, lets sit down and talk. Lets work, together, and see what we can do.

With all due respect why does my opinion not count? Everyone else seems to be able to voice their opinion on "hazing", they also seem to love to trash fraternities that do "haze" I have not at any point said well you guys are terrible because you don't "haze". I just think that certain things need to be clarified more in the laws and that is all. I feel that it is unconstitutional to be charged for a crime were the "victims" are willing, that is all I wanted to say. Sorry if I offended or rattled anyone.

Brother,
My grammar may have been a bit off. Everyone does have a right to their HO/POV. That said, please review the other threads and you may get an idea of what has happened here.

And yes, many laws and policies have the need to be clarified.
Just as, IMHO, all socal/living/sporting ( et al) groups need to clarify just how they are going to get along.

Yeah I think I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say, I'm sorry.

Hard doesnt mean that it has to be hazing. At my chapter we tell Rushees that our pledgeship is time demanding (i.e. pledge tests, community service, a thing called Blackbooks basically mini-interviews) but we never haze.

Hazing is meant to create a bond by putting a group of people through a traumatic experience but that only bonds that group with itself and not the rest of the members in the house.

A good pledge program is one that intergrates the actives with the associates. "Blackbooks" can work if used properly, that is, for legitimate interviews. Hazing will ruin a chapter and the greek community at the school. A fraternity on my campus got caught hazing and now the rest of us are under constant scrutiny because of it.

Funny, hazing doesnt seem to have ruined our greek systems

Yet.

Yeah, Delt, not yet. We're only some of the best in the country, and have been for decades. I'm sure its coming...or MAYBE, despite everyone's infinite knowledge of what works for greek systems, we have a better grasp down here of what works and what advances our greek organization. I know, I know, its a crazy idea, I'm sure people from Oswego State's greek system know wayyyy more about traditional greek life than people at Alabama or Texas or UGA.

Well, good luck then.

It only takes the hammer to come down once before the S hits the fan.

Yeah, we've never had any trouble here for hazing. Oh wait, it happens every semester, and yet our greek systems are still top notch. Good theory, boys.

Good, may you keep it up while you are there!!!!

shinerbock,

Keep it up! Your track record PROVES that you are doing it right. There are many other Houses out there that still Pledge REAL men.

Maybe there should be another Greek classification. "Fraterniorites.?"

Tom and Delt have long ago given up and bowed to the political correctiveness of the weak.

N2;
There are several "track records" to bear in mind.
1) In this group, in every single "Hazing" thread, we have found several problems with the term alone. Not only do we have our own POV/IMHO of what it is and what it is not, but we also perceive everyone else's POV/IMHO differently.
2) As also shown, in every single "Hazing" thread, the laws, policies, rules, regulations, definitions are different everywhere and in many if not all too many cases poorly written and defined. And/or perceived differently by all the different paties involved.
3) As shown not only here but in other groups, "Hazing" has closed many chapters in the past two months alone.
4) There are great chapters that "haze" and there are great chapters that do not and both may seem to do well. Then, of course, there are chapters in both camps (as well as in the middle ground ) that are not great, and fail. And no matter which camp they were in, when they fail, they not only fail themselves, they fail their group and the rest of the GLO's.
5) Bear in mind that RM covers a great deal more than "hazing" and poor RM and leadership/management in general causes 'problems' of their own.

I am sure that one could add a few more items to the above.

As for my point, I trying not to make one just trying to summarize what has been said here over and over again.

And, if you have not read any of the rest of the threads I do offer self-disclosure: My chapter lost its charter due in part to "hazing" and general stupidity. Which would fall into part three above: Great chapters which lose their way, lose their ID, their goals, lose their ties, their meaning,their leadership et al and fail.

And BTB N2, I went back to your posts in 2001 and read them.
This was rather interesting:"
Lil_G,

Because I am not free to discuss the issues that I have here in public. The anonymity allows the free (or somewhat freely) open discussion. The public discussion of anything that my chapter does in our pledge period is strictly prohibited. The bottom line is the fact that you want to know my e-mail address. What possible reason could you, or anyone else, have to know that?

I have no desire to have a private conversation with anyone outside of my Brothers on the subject of this board. The risk is simply too large."
Interesting because you had posted just prior that you HAD talked ("exchanged notes") to someone outside of your group about hazing and pledging.
And AFAIK, in PM's e-mail address are not given out.

And much more to the point of this group, between 2001 and 2006, the world has changed a bit. As I indicated above, problems of all sorts have grown.

Hey Shiner,

It's great to know that undergrads understand more about the greek system, how it works and its problems than the folks who have been around the system for years and have served as advisors and division and national officers.

Go ahead and have some fun, though, and if (heaven forbid) you chapter shows up in this forum sometime, we will not say, "I told you so," but rather mourn its suspension or loss of charter along with you.

All you have to do is read these threads to see that it can happen anywhere.

Yeah, we'll take our chances...like we have been for the last 100 years. I'm sure you're right though, its crazy how people in the huge southern traditional greek systems just won't heed the advice of people from other systems who have no knowledge of greek life in the south. Thanks for the warning though, we appreciate your misguided concern.