if you run your chapter or inter/national like a business you'll run it into the ground.

"we don't pledge anymore we have 45 associates or whatever this year"

next year "well...i'd rather have 35 assoicates than 50 pledges"

third year "has anybody seen the charter?"

OK, here's the deal as I see it after being on both sides of the equation.

Nationals and insurance companies don't make a chapter good or bad. Size and geographic location doesn't make a chapter good or bad. The size of the school and whether it is public or private doesn't make a chapter good or bad.

The kind of men and women who are recruited make a chapter good or bad.

But, no matter how good those people are, they can't do it all on their own. Well, for the most part, anyway.

With a relatively small number of local exceptions, Nationals make a chapter stronger by giving it more resources than a local can afford. Those things include lower rates for liability insurance (which is necessary whether you like it or not), better deals on other supplies such as badges, forms, educational materials, etc.

How would you like a world where there were no rules or laws and anyone could run roughshod over your individual rights?

How would you like a world where you were forced to pay top dollar for your own insurance with no opportunity to negotiate lower group rates?

How much more would your badge cost if you had to buy it from a jewler in lots of ten or twenty instead of hundreds?

Would you like to have to provide your own legal representation if a member or chapter gets in trouble?

Do you suppose your advisors and other volunteers would work with you if their personal liability wasn't covered?

Who would organize and pay for division, national and international meetings, leadership seminars, etc.?

What would you really do without alumni support -- in terms of time, treasure and talent as they say (advisors, house corps., etc.)?

Who would be the protector of traditions and history?

How long do you think your organization would last without that support?

How much experience and background do members in the average chapter have in running a business -- and I'm sorry, but running a chapter really is a business with income and expenditures, personnel problems at all.

Do you really think that undergraduates have the knowledge, experience and skill to make a national or international organization work? Do they have the time?

How many undergraduates have the skills and intestinal fortitude to step up to a brother and sister and enforce the rules if he or she is out of line?

By the way, even in the locals mentioned briefly above, don't you suppose there is a cadre of loyal alumni helping the actives work through the problems of keeping a chapter running?

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about rules and laws and insurance and how to keep our chapters running.

It ain't a perfect world.

How many of your chapters have problems collecting dues, paying bills, keeping the house maintained and things along those lines because there is a weak officer or even one who doesn't really have the time to devote to the job. Someone with great intentions, who just doesn't get it done?

Those are some of the things that Nationals and alumni do for the undergraduate chapters.

Unfortunatley, enforcing the rules and the law are part of that job as well.

Glad someone finally posted something like this. People don't realize that the big powerful southern chapters really do get preferential treatment. Go to Alabama and have people tell you about things the SAE's have done there. Pretty amazing, and Nationals just turns the other cheek. Same with FIJI at Texas or Phi Delt at Ole Miss. So no, you can't just say, well, if you break the rules you will lose your charter. Not so...i've seen it plenty of times and so have others.

Co-sign

Thanks PiKa2001. It really is true. And I completely understand all of the stuff that Heather17, DeltAlum, and AGDee are saying. I am well aware of the insurance aspect of the Fraternity System and I am well aware of how negative hazing can affect it. I think many people on here think that us who talk about the big Southern chapters are bragging and being ignorant....but we really are speaking the truth. Thats the difference between greek systems in the South and all of the rest, and its often hard to explain because people that don't know think we are simply talking out of our ass.

What some people think is that perceived arrogance and conceit like this shows a lack of respect for great Greek systems like Inidana, Illinois, Penn State, Michigan and a lot of others.

I don't have a lack of respect for others.....I just think that they are different.

Some chapters are, perhaps, treated differently but I would guess it has more to do with money and size, than location. In my personal experience, it has more to do with the local advisors.

I am kind of appalled that someone would complain about the opportunity to speak at an inter/national conference/convention. It should be an honor. If you really feel used, don't do it, please, because that is not the kind of attitude I would want passed around to other chapters.

If you think you're the best--then you have an obligation to be models and lead with purpose. If your chapter doesn't like being national or the rules/fees that come with that--then maybe you should vote to go local.

With what DeltAlum said, the greek systems at Michigan or Indiana are considered some of the best in the nation. But what I do agree with is how influential chapters in the big greek systems are able to continue to operate because nationals and the host school tend to turn the other cheek.

If, as he's said, their national is letting them get away with doing whatever they want to do, why should they?

I've applauded any time (well, not applauded, but for lack of a better word) I've seen a sorority or fraternity on here that screwed up be closed down even if they were one of the bigger chapters in the national org and popular on their campus. On the other side of the coin, there was a thread on here where the advisor was bemoaning some of the risk management nightmares that had been going on for years - but the chapter saw no need to change their ways. They were a big chapter on campus, bringing in lots of $$$ and the national had only given them slaps on the wrist for repeated offenses. So where would be their motivation? It had already been made clear to them by the national's behavior that as long as they kept bringing in the members and money, they had carte blanche.

There can't be one standard of behavior for the small chapters that are struggling, and one for the kings/queens of the campus or organization. If your Ole Miss chapter that has taken quota/been over total for the past 100 years screws up royally, they should get the same treatment that the chapter at BFE State with 10 girls gets if they do the same thing.

33--good post. That may be the first time you and I agree on something. :) You're right--some groups and schools don't do enough to set the same standards for all chapters, and it is a shame.

Big chapters do actually help on insurance rates by spreading the premiums around.

They're also a lot cheaper for their HQ's to maintain

But they don't help if they engage in bad risk management. That was the point of my post.

And I don't think that a chapter with the burden of a huge house to fill and keep in shape is necessarily "cheaper to maintain" than a small chapter that is unhoused and not having any major problems. If a group begrudges things like sending a consultant once a year to the smaller groups, then they shouldn't have colonized at a school like that to begin with. I'd rather hear a group be straight up and say "we don't want to be at a school with under such and such enrollment" and pull out, then do a lot of bogus things to make it seem like the chapter were the bad guys if that wasn't the case and they are "justified" in closing them.

No it's not a shame. It's also not a shame that within the chapter they don't set a standard for all members to get the same haircut and date girls with blonde hair (although if they added a clause for big boobs I'd be all for it).

-Rudey

There and have been Large Schools with so called strong Chapters that have been closed for cause.

If a large School with a strong Chapter is not penilized then, it shows other Chapters that there is a two sided GLO. This is not really good is it?

The first one that comes to Mind is SN, Sorry , Ktsnake. At William-Jewell in KC Metro area, they were the first with a nice big and beautiful New House which is empty now. They violated the National Rules and were Suspended once and came back on Campus, did it again and are now gone again. Ergo, SN is no longer represented there.

W-J has Well over 50 % of campus in Greek Organizations.

And Yes, there is a strong Greek Reprentation in The South, but, it isnt the only place is it?

Try keeping some GLOs strictly in the South and see what happens.

Union GLOs are very slow to expand. Expansion is Growth.

It's a shame when people try to warp people's positions....

Who warped anything? You talked about setting standards for all chapters. It makes no sense, just like not setting standards within a chapter.

Listen you've talked about having some bad sorority experiences but you really need to stop projecting onto others and figure out how to get that chip off your shoulders.

-Rudey

Generally a corporate body (Nationals in this case) sets standards for all of its offices (Chapters in this case), and then local managers both enforce the corporate standards in addition to any that he/she/they set(s) due to local necessities.

While not true in all cases, I'm not sure a group of undergraduates has the experience and maturity to set overall standards.

They're recolonizing within the next year, maybe already. I don't recall ever hearing that they were a particularly large chapter though.

It's funny how most areas set standards on jaywalking and just look the other way when you go against those standards. Sometimes people just set "standards" to say they did. Rituals are standard. Rushing and pledging are not no matter how many "Innovative" programs you come up with and think kids will buy into.

-Rudey

I've also had a million great sorority experiences. I am passionate about this topic because I want to help ensure others can have positive experiences and also so our organizations will remain viable, and relevant. I am not sure what you mean by projecting--but if encouraging others to set high standards and consider the consequences of their actions is projecting, then I accept that proudly.

Most national GLOs have standards that they expect their chapters to meet in terms of numbers, paperwork, etc. At the national level, it is a business.

Jaywalking is a law -- not a standard.

It is enforced in some places, and isn't in many (most).

Probably like many standards set by Nationals.

If you jaywalk and get hit by a car or cause and accident, you'll usually be cited.

If you ignore your Nationals and get in trouble, you'll probably be taken to task.

That is good to hear.

They were the first House built on land donated by The School and is really nice. I got a tour through it one summer when I went up to see what was going on.

Nice guys to me as a LX!

There is an area that is a little out of the way but man are the Houses nice.

Run around a cal du sac, SN, LXA, Fiji, and KA in that order. Houses hold around 50-60 I think and run into Millions.

Great to hear SN will be returning soon!:cool:

Well people seem to be put off by your standards, so yes you are projecting. There isn't much confusion about that.

Again, the chip on your shoulders should be applied to your own sorority (APhi?) and these posts you make are nothing more than projecting and talking down.

-Rudey
--Reverand Hatcher, or whatever his name is, is pretty proud of encouraging high standards as well.

A law is a standard, first of all, depending on usage of the word, or sets standards.

Second of all, given that neither the law nor the standards are usually enforced until a law is broken, it's pretty obvious that many standards really aren't pushed.

"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from"

-Rudey

These are not "my" standards--its the law. I didn't make the laws up. And it is only a few people who do not want to follow the law, and who I would argue are putting their chapters in jeopardy for a variety of reasons (not just legal), that are put off (repeatedly). I do not believe I have talked down to anyone--rather, I have been trying to encourage people to look at the facts. I have not called anyone names nor have I tried to skew what they have said (unlike some.) I can only project if people let me.

Why are you so offended by my presentation of facts? If you disagree with the facts then attack them--there is no need to continuously attack me.

No I am not an Alpha Phi--I am a DPhiE.

At what point did I attack you? You know what's funny? By insinuating that I did so you are painting quite the ugly picture. I'd call that an "Attack" but really there isn't any need to get all emotional sweetums.

Anyway, 1) there are a ton of laws on the books that aren't enforced. I named jaywalking as one but there are sodomy laws and quite a few ridiculous things that you can find if you wanted to google. 2) not all laws are to be followed (see slavery). 3) the law is to be interpreted given that most things are gray in life and not black/white.

-Rudey

Not emotional at all--but anytime you tell someone they have a chip on their shoulder, they might consider that personal.

Agreed--not all laws are enforced.

And not all illegal actions can lead to liability and lawsuits, which our organizations cannot afford to continuously defend ourselves against.

Have you ever noticed that this forum and this whole area of discussion is called Risk Management? It's not called Risk Elimination and Prevention.

We are exposed to liabilities and risk on a daily basis. In fact, it's a given that it will happen at some point (hence the liability). Given our exposure, we just try and manage it because that's all we can do. So those standards that you think need to be held above all else, are often ignored even by a national office.

I can name off several chapters of several dry fraternities where I know without a shadow of a doubt that their national office knows those chapters are not dry and those chapters are still open.

Risk is managed, molded, and evolved over time.

-Rudey

I think the differece between this and hazing, however, is that hazing is deemed illegal in 44 states...and there are no laws governing the choice of whether an organization is dry or not , although certainly there are rules about serving and drinking underage.

As I said before, not all national orgs enforce their policies, and I don't agree with that. If you're going to have a policy, then enforce it; otherwise, consider not adopting or rescinding that policy.

Nobody enforces everything.

And drinking is just one case (coincidentally, if you assume one enters college at 18 and graduates at 22, unless their parties are for seniors only - which they're not - they are violating the underage laws by 75%). I also know of several chapters where the advisors and consultants know about hazing. It's just the way it is. Scav hunts may be considered hazing, but often people look the other way.

Even payments of dues often come in after deadline.

The list can go on and on.

-Rudey

So are you saying this is ok?

I am saying it's not black and white. It's not right or wrong.

You can say good or bad but those are personal/moral judgements on your part, and nothing more or factual.

-Rudey

See I disagree--if its against the law, then it is pretty black and white. Just because someone chooses not to act on it or enforce it, doesn't change that.

The law is interpreted.

-Rudey

There were 11 girls total in my pledge class. I go to a rather small school so a few of the girls knew each other already, but since I was a year older then most of them I went into the sorority knowing nobody. That was scary in itself. The hazing aspect of joining DID bring us together. During especially bad nights we would all gather afterwards before starting our projects and talk or listen to each other. Since we were all hazed equally no "cliques" formed in our group and there was no resentment towards the sisters. The night we got in was amazing. Such a huge rift was relieved and it was so amazing seeing the older sisters' attitutes change so quickly. There was not a dry eye in the entire house.

I guess, in Your mind and ours is what is hazing?

It may in Your mind have brought You and Your Sisters together, but a lot depends on what type of hazing.

Just need to make one comment here. While hazing may create a bond between pledge brothers/sisters, it can distance the chapter from the national organization as a whole. Last year, a good friend of mine pledged a national organization on his campus (NIC). This fraternity had the reputation for hazing the most out of a campus on which hazing generally was pretty prevalent. He became best friends with all of his pledge brothers and after he got in, he became a diehard brother of the fraternity. Something shady happened with his chapter. He has been in for about a year now, however, neither he, nor any of his pledge brothers have been initiated. I asked him to see his fraternity pin and he said he never got one. Since he pledged, he has had a little brother, yet he was never initiated. I didn't wanna make a big deal out of this with him, but it seemed like either his chapter thought that they were above the national fraternity as a whole, or they just couldn't get their act together.

That's unfortunate, but what does that have to do with hazing? Personally, that's partially your friends fault for pledging a fraternity that most likely didnt even have its charter. Distance ourselves from Nationals??? Oh, God NO!!:rolleyes: Nationals may as well be some sleazy insurance company, seems like all they do is take our money and provide insurance.

I'm willing to bet it wasn't the drink 'till you puke kind. I also bet it wasn't the type that physically beat them, etc. That type of hazing pretty much screws the rest of us that "haze" responsibly.

I bet it was the type that put them in a difficult situation, and they probably had to overcome it by working together.
(sarcasm)Maybe they even broke a sweat, or actually got their hands dirty(sarcasm)

Some greek organizations still make you EARN your letters. Those are the type that have members that are proud to wear their letters because they had to work their ass off to get them.