I agree with what KSig RC said, and I'll add that you are painting with way too broad a brush here. What you say may describe some (many) liberals, but recourse to any dictionary shows it to be a severe overgeneralization. I checked quite a few dictionaries, including Mirriam-Webster Collegiate, which defines liberalism as:

a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

and the Random House Unabridged, which defines liberalism as:

political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.

You are not describing the actual definition of liberalism. You are describing the connotation that many "conservatives" have worked hard over the last few decades to wrap the word in, admittedly readily aided by many liberals.

Just part of the reason why I think "liberal" and "conservative" have become almost meaningless with regard to really understanding politics. The Mad Hatter has taken them and declared them to mean whatever he says they mean.

No, I'm describing the "real" definition of liberalism. I'm not gonna get into a political thought or economy class on what is a "liberal." When I say liberal, I'm referring to the context of the left-right political landscape in America. The definitions of liberalism or neo classical liberalism have very little to do with how it is used in a modern American political debate. It'd be nice if this site wasn't so academic so that we could talk about ACTUAL things without being corrected by someone pointing out what everyone who went to college already knows. I would use the term "democrat" but then some of you "liberals" would say, hey, I'm not a democrat, I'm an independent...it just so happens that I'm pro taxes, pro choice, pro affirmative actions, etc, etc...They're just terms, folks. Sorry for the tangent, it just really annoys me.

As for conservatives being for smaller government, this is true, somewhat. Modern conservatives obviously aren't for an entirely bare-bones government (once again we meet the "what is a conservative" discussion). That being said, I don't think being against gay marriage necessarily means being for bigger government. Gay marriage hasn't been allowed in the past, so an amendment or statute is merely affirming the practice for the future. Its not really restrictive if its never been allowed...

No, you're really describing the "working" definition of liberal used by many Americans who describe themselves as "conservatives." There is a difference between that and the actual meaning of a word. And yes, they are just terms, but unfortunately, they are terms that are becoming meaningless and therefore relatively useless.

As for whether being againt gay marriage = a true conservative position, I think it probably does, despite the conservative bent toward small government. Among the hallmarks of conservatism are maintaining ("conserving") established tradition, social stability and established institutions, as well as gradual ("conservative") change.

I agree, working is a better defining term, although I think my meaning is correct in the real context of American political debate. I don't think terms are losing their value, they're simply being applied in a more practical and less academic way. Of course, I'm a person who absolutely abhores theory, so it makes sense that I'd feel this way.

Perhaps, but with that practicality and decreased academicism comes decreased precision. As a lawyer, I like precision when it comes to words.

Yeah but from what I can tell terms in law often have a precise meaning, whether they facially appear that way or not...this is in contrast to other academia where terms often refer to some vague principle with little practical usage. At least when lawyers make up words other lawyers use them in real world situations, unlike my college professors who create terms and require us to learn about some terribly vague idea they created and published in a book which sold 16 copies to other equally aloof professors...As you can see this is a thinly veiled rant against the academic community.

Rant away.

Or they assign it to their class so students have to buy it.

We're all nice. Get a job.

Haha, I'd never read what this thread was actually about. That being said, try being a conservative on a liberal campus (or message board...) and you'll probably be labled a hate filled racist war monger who slaughters animals.

...and you're sure to be if you act like one.

How is the government "creating" a right an action that small government would undertake? I've never quite understood this. And conservatives don't believe the government should simply finance highways and not have any other roles in the lives of its citizens. Those are those people that don't get elected but are proud of some lady who writes idiot books.

-Rudey

Yeah, I guess not liking rap music and being against affirmative action is doing just that...

Two examples of liberals defining liberalism.

Liberals say "individual" but mean "group". I.E. the poor, the workers, the elderly, the blacks, etc. One of their Bibles is "It takes a village to raise a child" by HC, and village means government (preferably Federal Govt.)

Hi GA-Beta, how are you today?

and shinerbock, it's just as hard being a liberal at a conservative school.

Theres a lot more liberal schools than conservative ones...

Hey, there are worst things to be called than that.

This is my entire point - shouldn't this be entirely a state issue?

And, by proxy, isn't that aspect of state's rights a hallmark of traditional conservatism?

...yeah. A Democrat.

heh... the worst insult you can throw at a conservative up here is "Republican"; because both the Bush/Neo-Con association, but mostly because you're accusing the person of republicanism... only the extreme far-right fringe hold to those values :)

Well thankfully I don't live up there.

I imagine part of the "insult" is that Canada isn't a republic. I would have thought, though, that Republicanism (i.e., wanting to establish a federal republic in place of a realm governed by the Queen-in-Parliament) in Canada would be viewed as quite liberal (in the sense of wanting to completely overhaul the system of government) rather than far-right fringe.

Anne Coulter is a Beta?

Well that expalins a lot...

Dude, that's not even an insult.

I'm a conservative at heart, but for the most part I vote NDP/Liberal/and soon enough democrat. Some of these conservative leaders are fucking crazy.

Thats nonsense. At my fraternity house in 2004, you could make fun of someones mom, gf, religious beliefs, anything...but don't dare accuse them of supporting John Kerry. D*mocrat is a very dirty word some places.

You'd think :rolleyes:

But it in practice these last two decades, it has been the far-left NDP and centralist Liberals that have been the flag bearers for the Monarchy - they are the one that have opposed "conservative" motions to remove the Queen from the Oath of Allegiance and Citizen's Ceremony (new citizenship ceremony).

Canada's far-right have always had an element of the United North America republic nutjobs (trust me, a Canadian political nutjob is waaaaay out there), a trend going back to even before 'Canada'... in the old days, if a Tory was labelled a "republican" his career was done... now though, who knows, the political right has fractured and reformed, adopting a myriad of disperate political flavours. Anyways I'm a Old Tory, which among other things means a staunch defense of the Monarchy, Canadian (British) traditions/insitutions, the privacy of religion, equal taxation, respect for heirarchy/authority, and a fond rememberance of the days of Empire...

LOL, exactly why my forebears left Long Island and moved to New Brunswick after finding themselves on the, shall we say, disappointed end of the American Revolution. Of course, some of the family trickled back down to the States -- it's how I ended up here instead of St. John. But sometimes, I think if one scratched my skin deep enough, they'd still find a bit of a monarchist.

...and so are some of these "liberal" leaders.

Exactly.
I've seen more physical violence over political leanings than having sex with someone else's girlfriend.