What is "the K word" ?:confused: I don't know what you're talking about. Please PM me.

Re: ownership of the n word
 

Personally, I would never use the word no matter who's company i'm in because I considered it as offensive and demeaning as the nortorious 7 dirty words. I don't want to debate ownership, but just recognize it exists and because it does, this reinforces discrimination and racism on another level.

Historical facts and stuggle is important, trust me I've been dealing with cultural problems like that for a long time, but it's still no excuse to discriminate a word by person. I'm not trying to bring anyone down, but I can understand the culture reclamation of the word, but it just doesn't make sense that it should matter. Older generations seem to have a struggle or reclamation "right" to the word, I don't see why the young generations today need to use it, it's just an offensive word in my book.


RUgreek

I agree with everything you said. You're right, there is no scientific basis for race, i wish more people could understand something like that.


Unfortunately, it's the persons skin color, family background, etc., that racism exists on. People look at you and determine you're race by what you look like. I'm not arguing that you can classify people into simple categories of races, of course you can't. The argument is that because of their biological makeup, i.e. the physical attributes of an individual, racism is rampant on that level.


I think I confused the quote i was reply to in that thread, and read racism instead of race. My bad, I didn't mean to confuse the two, but I kept jumping back and forth between the word and it's root and started to make a bad argument.

Race, in my opinion, is not an absolute thing. Yes, it is quite impossible to find a specific race for anyone, in the end, we are all different down to our genes. However, simple things off a checklist, such as skin color, background, and limited characteristics, we can find that many people can become grouped into a certain race whether they like it or not. That's my reasoning for race classification on the biological scale. I don't agree with it either, but it's just the way things are. Race is more than just a social construct.


RUgreek

People of different "races" have more in common geneniticly than people of the same race. After all, we're all human. We can produce viable offsrping.

WOO! I hope you have eyes in the back of your head because you are back-pedaling mighty fast!

On the issue of the "n-word" all I am saying is that whether or not it is racist, reclaimed, offensive, or anything, you should not concern yourself over it. Why do you care? Do you want to say that word? If not, then why bother about it?

RUGreek...

What exactly is the "Black Community"?

Each person within said group would have a different response to the same word. Again (and I'm beating the hell out of this dead horse, I know!) it's another semantics thing (isn't everything?).

If I (whiteguy) was to utter the word to some of my black friends then probably nothing would come of it... no biggie. But if I'm behind the counter working retail or waiting tables and I called a black customer that???? God help me!

Perception is key here.. If the word is used in a manner meant to demean or offend than it is bad (I think). BUT! If it's used as a term of endearment, crude as it is.. why the hell not?

On a side note I actually call many of my friends "Cracka"...

What does that mean? I don't think the elevator reaches the top floor for ya. Your turn!


That's my point, on the issue of racism, it's only something white people can commit, on the issue of the n-word it's something that only black people can say.

You don't see a problem with any of these one-sided beliefs?


RUgreek

well my definition is just african-american. But everyone else here gets all bent and tries to point to "well this and that is black, what about half black, and 3/4 orange" and eventually in their mind it's all black, white, and redish-purple.

When you fill out an application for college or whatever, the list goes like caucasian, latino, black or african american, asian, etc. It's what a person looks like, i'm just saying what it is, not trying to be an ass.


RUgreek

I was referring to the way that you have completely reversed your original argument. You went from "RACE IS BIOLOGICAL! THE DICTIONARY IS RIGHT!" to your current stance, which is something totally different (and you claim you have been saying it all along). You totally backtracked, it was not a personal attack.


I think we have agreed that AS THE DEFINITION STANDS...racism can be committed by anyone. However, you have argued that race is a natural phenomenon, something biological. I, and others, are arguing that race is a social construct, making the whole point rather moot. If the concept of "race" was created by those in power to classify and oppress accordingly, how can the victims of that opppression be guilty? NOT INDIVIDUALS within the minority, mind you, but the oppressed people AS A WHOLE.

The issue of racism and the usage of an inflammatory term are two totally different things...apples and oranges. They cannot be compared.

You have a way of throwing out blanket statements about the "black community" and then getting defensive when people call you on it. Here is something for you to get defensive about:


Now. How on EARTH you can possibly tell me what is in anyone else's mind?! This is your problem. You have accused everyone else of making assumptions and throughout this whole thread you have done nothing but.

My point is, PRECISELY: When you go to fill out a college application, or whatever...the little boxes you check have NO OTHER PURPOSE than to classify you. And when you are in the minority in this country, that is very dangerous. Please mention Affirmative Action in your next post! LOL!

http://plaudersmilies.de/screams.gifCan't we all just get along???????http://plaudersmilies.de/screams.gif

Not exactly the best comment there for promoting racial harmony:D

Apparently sarcasm missed you by a week. Don't get your panties in a bunch, this is just a discussion, right?

Now, I haven't backtracked, backpedaled, or reversed any stance. I never said the dictionary is right, so don't put words into my mouth. Race is biological, that position hasn't changed, I just accept your argument that it's social too. Unfortunately, you can't see clearly that both sides are correct, depending on how you perceive it. What I did say was my argument got confused because I started mixing up race def. with racism. So relax, ok?


Well it's about g-d damn time someone said it. Congratulations, you're the first! And finally, I can leave this ridiculous post, cause it's the only thing I cared about getting across here. Sheesh!

This is fine. I accept the point that it is a social construct. I completely agreed (as before) with you on this. However, my side is also that it's biological. You don't have to like it, just accept that it exists.

I disagree, it all centers around the same problem. These terms and their usage exist the way they do because of racism. This is completely related. Otherwise, why get so bent over a different race's usage of them? Yes, I understand it's about opression and reclamation, but that's still racism.


I don't make any assumptions, I just tell it like it is. My definition of the black community is what you see on an application asking about someone's racial background. I'm not telling anyone here what's going on in their minds, don't take my words so literally. I think the only problem here is you get upset. Some people see things conservatively "A is black, B is white" while others may view it other ways "A is black + white - green * red / brown" All I am telling you with regards to anyone else's mind, is that race has different meanings, different classifications.


Affirmative Action.


And for your information, those check boxes are for statistical purposes, to see the number of X that apply, go to the school, etc. Yea they classify you, how else are they going to figure out if action needs to be taken to balance those numbers? If you like, you may take a look at FERPA yourself. And of course, those questions are optional, so nobody is required to answer them.


RUgreek

losing ALL MY PATIENCE
 

Wow.

I am not trying to start drama or anything:p but RUGReek that whooooole statement was some serious reconceptualization of the past on your part. Were you reading the same message board that I was?

You are the one who INSISTED that standard definitions were the only ones that counted for the LONGEST time until ktsnake, librasoul22 and myself called you on it. Don't lie because everybody read it. You are the one who said that only standard definitions count. That was wrong. Anyone who has studied language or linguistics in the slightest can tell you, and I believe that we have, repeatedly.

You CAN"T SAY that race is a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT and at the same time BIOLOGICAL. Do you know what social construct means? do you know what calling it that means? It means that it is something defined by society and with no SCIENTIFIC (read: BIOLOGICAL basis). You can't try and PRETEND to agree with me and hold to your original and WRONG interpretation of the word.

You want to say it's biological then fine. Accept that you live in a fantasy world. Can you tell intelligence by the size of foreheads too? Sounds like perfectly sound EIGHTEENTH CENTURY SCIENCE to me.

And let me just say this and get it off my chest:You obviously know NOTHING (not the word I wanted to use there, but I am trying to be SOMEWHAT polite, lol) about the black community, WHATEVER IT IS THAT YOU THINK IT IS COMPRISED OF. Until you either do some serious research on the topic, or are willing to listen to other viewpoints on the matter (ha,ha) SHUT THE HELL UP AND SIT DOWN.

Not the most politic thing in the world to say, but I had to get it off my chest :D

And the SCORES of people on GC who won't like what I just said can kiss my grits. Sometimes you just have to call it like you see it, even when it gets personal.

I am not totally intolerant of other views, but really when you have no logical basis for them, and can't tell me anything but your personal anecdotal evidence, I lose all respect for what you post. Mad people feel the same way about you and JUST DON'T SAY IT- and I DON'T just mean black people. I will be the one to say it if I have to. I am willing to take the heat for it.

Bring it.

I will just asssume you meant along.

And no we can't! Hellooooo! No!

Are you threatening me?! lol!
 

Relax drama queen, you need not loose any patience. What exactly did anyone hear "call" me on? I discuss my points, they discuss theirs, and we reach a compromise in between. That's what a discussion is all about. How am I lying, we are trying to reach a understanding and learn from what each person says. You apparently only see what you think and get mad when others don't follow you. I don't lie, all my posts are exactly the way I wrote them, so what am I hiding? :D I never said "only standard definitions count" again you enjoy making simple statements out of my complicated explanations. I said, in a simple sense, this is what the definition stands for racism, discuss. I'm sorry if this discussion is offending you too much, I apologize for confusing you.

Actually, I can say whatever I wish, you just don't have to agree with it, ok? Yes, one definition of racism is a social one, the other is biological, why is it so hard for you to accept that? Just because my definition fits how the rest of society looks at racism, don't get so upset. Just learn to accept that not everyone thinks your one-sided views are the one and only correct definitions. I think you're ego is forcing you to be close-minded.

Bad form ref. I live in the realist world, you want the idealistic. What exactly is the point of that statement, you just whining at me or trying to sound smart? :confused:



Hmm, ok. That's a pretty big assumption, good job. I probably know more or I may not. This isn't a pissing contest for me to show that I am almighty, but you can rant and rave all you wish, doesn't change me and what I know.

It's alright, I'm sure others think I deserve it.


You don't need to take this personal, it really wasn't until you made it such.

What? you got a gang now against me. Yay, preach on, I thought this is suppose to be a discussion, not a hate mongering session? Listen, stop patting yourself on the back and pay attention for sec. I'm not trying to gain any respect here, I'm trying to bring my points across. First, racism can be committed by non-white races. Point accepted and made, therefore we move on. Two, racism can be defined not only as a social construct (your view) but also as a biological one (my side). It's PERFECTLY fine with me that you do not like nor wish to accept my side, but it's very sad to me that you can't even ACKNOWLEDGE it. Why, does closing your eyes and saying "I'm invisible" make it so? Open your eyes, and then eventually your mind will follow.

Oh, and to all those GCers out there, I'm sorry but that had to be said, so you can kiss her grits some more if it pleases you. I'm from the north east, we don't have grits here, sorry.



How old are you, 16? No, wait, I do know this one "It's already been broughten :cool:." Here I got one too:

"Whateva whateva, I do what I want!"


RUgreek

I haven't seen people this angry since the OJ trial. :D

oh come on, you don't seriously think i'm like that?

i'm beginning to lose hope.

Calm down...
 

Arguing something like this we sometimes confuse the need to win with the need to come to an understanding (note I didn't say agreement).

If you present your case in the following format:
"I win, you lose" -- in other words you say in plain english "I'm right, you're wrong" that automatically sends someone on the defensive! I've been guilty of this from time to time but I'm just observing here:D

Perhaps try to simply state your points of view and see what is in common WITHOUT trying to say something someone else believes is outright wrong. Just say how you differ and why.

Otherwise it's just a fight.. no one wants that.. I hope?

No,

I'm not here to resurrect the ill gotten frathater, I'm just trying to get through to some people.

I don't think I've been saying things in the "I win you lose" tone, but if I have, woops my bad. I really am trying to reach out here, but maybe I'm just not saying things clearly.

I keep restating myself and answer each point (with the obvious sarcastic response to the dumb remarks) but I'm just being civil here.


RUgreek


(People actually tell me I'm a nice guy?:( Hmm, go figure...)

not taking back a word
 

I lost my patience, not my temper, lol.

Believe it or not I am actually laughing at this whole thread at this point- not a little because when I reread my post it sounded like something that got cut from a Kevin Smith movie. I have watched Chasing Amy wayyyy too much, lol.

Anyway, I stand by everything I said. If folk don't like it, or think it was overly angry/militant, then oh well.

They can still kiss the grits. I'm born and raised in NYC and have never eaten them, but I'll look up the recipe, ESPECIALLY for them.

(1) i don't want to piss anyone off, but I will go the distance whenever arguing something.

(2) Chasing Amy was a good flick.

(3) even though you've lost all respect for me, I don't consider you angry or militant.

(4) grits are greasy and nasty. the only reason i ate them was because the waffle house was the only place i could find breakfast one spring break. wouldn't recommend a serving from that joint.

- RUgreek

Waffle House? Ugh. Passed them on the road, kept driving.....

Seriously though, I did not mean to make a personality judgement about you- I don't know you. I just lost patience with your views.

It happens.

Re: Are you threatening me?! lol!
 

I am just gonna leave whatever I quoted and not waste time trying to edit for him. OMG. RUGreek, you are quite possibly MORE stubborn than me...I didn't think it possible. The downside to that is not only are you stubborn, but also ignorant.

The VERY thing you argue against, you are guilty of it. Do you not see that? Telling us to recognize and acknowledge your viewpoint when you are refusing to do it yourself! Hello!!

Please, I hate to be a rerun of Neicy81, but reread your own posts from like 4 pages ago. Then reread what you have posted recently. Do you not see how your posts have done a DRAMATIC 180??? If you STILL do not see it, I think that there might be other problems besides your obvious close-mindedness (hey if prejudism is a word, then...lol).

The statement that perhaps made me laugh the hardest was "open your eyes and your mind will follow..." LOL!!! OMG!!! That one was too much.

You have opened yourself up far too much and left FAR too many things for me to TEAR APART, I mean really, but I am sleepy. I will just say that for you to call yourself a realist and everyone else an idealist...that is just THE ICING ON THE CAKE. RUGreek, reality check: Not only are your views utterly UNREALISTIC, you are DISSILLUSIONED about most things...particularly things that are not similar to YOU. Get a grip!

lol:D

Re: Calm down...
 

I'm sorry but anyone who says that there is a biological basis to race IS in fact wrong. Flat out wrong. Other stuff is relative yes, but that one's just WRONG.

Ok, I firmly believe that RACE truly is only a social construct but let me go out on a limb here.......

RUGreek,

Could one of the reasons you believe race is a biological construct be due to the fact that there are certain diseases that are inherently found in those of African descent (for example Sickle Cell Anemia)?

Really besides something like this, I know within the African American community we come is ALL SHADES, ALL SKIN FEATURES, ALL HAIR TYPES, ETC., so I am really trying to understand you point.

Ok....I told myself that I WOULD NOT post on this damn thread that I decided to start, but this comment downright pisses me off. The little boxes are there to HELP minorities. You to whoever to mention Affirmative Action. The only people Affirmative Action is relevent to are minorities. My sophmore year of high school, a senior got a FULL RIDE SCHOLARSHIP to University of Michigan Ann Arbor because he was Hispanic. He was a smart guy, but he flat out told us. I've never seen my Spanish teacher so pissed before, but she had to keep her mouth shut. I don't understand how you can say those little boxes are dangerous to minorities in this country. If I got your quote wrong, then please accept my apology. But I will say this, I think Affirmative Action is racism towards caucasians. I do not agree with a white man who is an extremely high achiever not get into school because there is a man of diff race who is just a high achiever wants to get into that university. Not fair.

PM Mama,

You do realize that in regards to Affirmative Action that YOU, yourself are considered a MINORITY that benefits from it as well? How, you might ask? Because you are a WOMAN! Women (including white women) are also lumped into that category of minority as well as blacks, latinos, asians, etc.

I'm sure your arguement is never heard when a WOMAN receives scholarships, grants, etc on that basis alone. So think about that the next time you or one of your female associates receive a scholarship, grant, or some type of monies.

And furthermore, you are talking about ONE scholarship out of how many ???????

just thought I'd let you know.

GREAT! I am SO glad that someone had the nerve to post this! PM Mama, I am sorry that reality pisses you off. You must be a very angry person...actually that fact has been verified through certain posts on this very thread.

In regards to your statement about boxes, Affirmative Action, etc.:

Again, I am glad that you can name ONE instance and, you know, I am almost positive someone on here can name at least ONE instance similar to your own. I can. But if you look at the BIG PICTURE...can you tell me the demographic of scholarship recipients? I can tell you RIGHT NOW that your instance along with the singular instances of everyone on this board combined is not enough to dent the stats.

This is what many of you fail to realize. THINK GLOBALLY, NOT LOCALLY. How many Blacks are heads of corporations? How many Blacks do you know that OWN universities? And what do you think the ratio of attendance to college is, black to white, scholarship or not?

The boxes that we check are not to HELP us, they are to CLASSIFY us, and that is, indeed, dangerous. Sorry, but that one Hispanic boy who got the one scholarship is still going to face discrimination and oppression as he moves up the ladder. Just like YOU are as a woman.

Re: Re: Calm down...
 

I just want to know why? WHY am I so wrong? I don't classify people by those things, but many people do, that's how they define race. Why is that wrong? I know you don't like it, trust me the point has been made, but I still cannot just accept I'm wrong because it is fact. It's not wrong if that's what people are doing.

No, I think that disease argument is b.s. too. We have Tay-Sachs, maybe it's more prevalent, but I don't think that your race centers around diseases you are more susceptible to.

I must not be saying this properly because a lot of you aren't seeing this point the way I am. People attach stereotypes to certain races, let's start with that. Jews have big noses, Irish red hair, African-Americans have dark black skin, Asians have small squinty eyes, you see where I'm going with this? Now, those stereotypes are specifically linked to a race for that individual. Now, all I'm trying to say is when someone looks at you, they judge you as a certain race, whether you've checked it off on a box or not. That's the biological basis for race, what you see as the external features of a person.

Does that help at all?


RUgreek

Ok...I am understanding this post better than past ones. I think you are confusing a BIOLOGICAL FACT with someone else's PERCEPTION. Just because you see those physical facets and attribute them to a certain type of person doesn't mean that the trait is BIOLOGICAL. It simply means that you are guilty of generalization. BIOLOGY is specific scientific evidence, not what a laymen may use as classification.

I completely agree with this point - it's fallacious logic to think that one item determines a trend, or that a handful comprise a majority . . . and you can provide the statistics, but causation here is difficult to prove. Do you honestly think that it's the 'little box' culture that causes scholarship amounts to be lower, or is it more likely the long-term effects of repression of access to education for minorities. coupled with current attitudes against them? I'm just trying to think more of the root cause rather than the current symptom.

I don't like the 'little boxes' or what they represent, but there are many underlying causes here, not just the one.

Good point, but should we discern between "black" and other minority status? The reason I ask is that I attend a school where some minorities are over-represented - Asian/Pacific Islander and Indian/Middle Eastern are all represented higher than the national rate of population.

However, "black", or African-American, comprises less than 5% of enrollment, compared to 11% (if I recall correctly, probably a little higher at current census) nationwide. I certainly don't know what to attribute this to, that's really not my area of expertise - any thoughts? It seems to me that institutional racism seems 'different' depending on the particular 'race' (or background) being discriminated against . . .

This is a rational conclusion, and an important one for PM_Mama to understand (in my opinion) - this may make it easier for her to understand your points. Now, what do you think would limit this type of oppression? Would it be enough for 11% of all CEOs to consider themselves black, and for 11% of the TV personalities to be black?

Unfortunately, I don't think that just this would eliminate the problem - actually, I'd imagine this was (one of) the original (ideal) intents of the 'little boxes' . . . I think this thread has shown just how deep-rooted and difficult this sort of problem is, even when discussed by the (relative) intelligencia of our society (by which I merely mean 'college-educated').

Just a question-
would you feel competent if you got a job, and found out that the employer used affirmitve action quotas to hire?
A.A. helps minorities (depending on ethnicity and gender) and if I found out the only reason I got a job was because I had tits and didn't have a little man in between my legs, I would have to wonder about the companies intergrity. Not to mention that everyone there would know why I got it over John Doe White Man. I don't think that almost everyone at an office knows who applies for a job, their qualifications and thus the person hired for a position is always held to the other candidates by coworkers. So I don't thinK I could work some place like that.

Also, if someone that is a minority does not want to go to college, gets poor grades, doesn't try in school at all, and they get a full ride and goes to college for free does that help anyone? I thought scholarships were supposed to help people that wanted to further their education, not someone who is lazy and just wants a few free years of school. I don't think it is fair because there are people out there that work their butts off and they don't get a free ride. They may get a 4.0 but they have to have apart time job all through college to afford books or whatever. How is that fair?

I think PM_Mama00 makes some interesting points. Affirmative Action programs are a way to balance out the exsistence of discrimination towards a class. My professor got her job because of AA, and she's damn proud of it. The only "minority" she fits into is the fact she is a woman, nothing else. I know the process is very slow and it's not producing the african-american CEOs yet, but you can't have equality everywhere, it just doesn't work like that. Give it more time, you'll see better results, they are coming, don't worry.

As for AA being racism against caucasians, I really don't see what that means. Specifically, yes, white males will be at a disadvantage in a fight for a job that invokes AA, but the point of it is to eliminate racial segregation, caucasians will just have to deal with it until that happens.


RUgreek

Honestly, the only place where I see affirmative action practices (for both women and minorities) is at fast food restaurants and other sucky jobs. :rolleyes:

Someone's biological background or origin creates those physical attributes. If you did not have the dark skinned relative, then you would not have it yourself. Someone's perception is not based wrongly just because it is a generalization. If a person sees a physical characteristic only associated with a certain racial or ethnic group, a characteristic specifically found within that group, yea it's a cheap generalization, but it only exists in that person because it was passed to them biologically. You can't inherit this type of feature through any other means, except for being born with it.

Doesn't that mean that someone born with certain traits that they are part of a certain race as a biological fact? If something is real and exists, doesn't that make it a fact?


RUgreek

Misconception Nbr 1:

Minority based sholarships are not just HANDED OUT or FORCED upon someone or any one minority. Those recipients have either met or exceeded the qualifications just as the other applicants have. Those individuals have probably worked just as hard and long as anyone else. Once again, you are talking about one scholarship out of how many???????? Why is there a belief that those applicants that accept this scholarships are lazy, dumb bums picked up off the streets?? :confused:

Misconception Nbr 2:

So I guess there are no companies that have glass ceilings for minorities :rolleyes: ? Just because someone is a minority in a high position DOES NOT mean that it the only reason why they have that position. Nevermind the fact that this person has EXCELLENT credentials, come with EXCELLENT references or they are usually the one to stay late and arrive early. They obvisouly must be some lazy bum off the streets hired to fill a quota...YEAH RIGHT!

Maybe instead of criticizing the employee, how about asking the company why DID IT TAKE FEDERAL LEGISLATION FOR THEM TO HIRE SOMEONE THAT WAS A MINORITY?

Wow...
 

Can someone please inform ME as to which college actually fills out the form for a person who doesn't want to go to college without their consent and signature, gives them a full scholarship with their 1.93 gpa, escorts the person to the campus while stopping at Walmart for supplies and the bookstore for books and chauffeurs them to class?

For whom are these stereotypes linked to that individual? Just because a lot of people have a perception in their mind of certain people, does NOT mean they are right. The majority of the world has a skewed conception on a lot of things because of their lack of education...not because there is a biological basis for race.

There are black, asian, hispanic Jews. Within whites, or caucasians, there are even more categories that are lumped together...all in a social manner because someone lumped them together.

Even scientifically you make no sense...how can there be a phenotype without a genotype?? Within the category of caucasian, anglo-saxon and middle eastern are included. You claim that there are physical indicators (common traits associated with them) for race which make it biological, but that breaks down here. A person from the middle east will be darker and than someone who is anglo-saxon in many cases...even darker than someone who is latino possibly. Yet middle easterners and anglos are dumped into a broad category called white. Even the government has been having a great deal of trouble using "race" in the census...kinda hard to distinguish blacks who are hispanic for one example.

- Rudey
-- The elevator has gone up