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MysticCat 04-12-2010 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916240)
Any other case cites? These are helpful.

I'll leave it to your lawyer to do your research.

TSteven 04-12-2010 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916218)
Do you know of Sigma Chi has appealed to the SCOTUS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1916235)
As far as I know, no effort was made to seek review of the Sigma Chi case in the Supreme Court. And yes, I think the holding is correct would likely be mirrored in most courts. Leonie Brinkema isn't a lightweight.

My understanding is the same. As such, Iota Xi efforts - with the support of HQ - is toward reducing the campus imposed suspension.

MysticCat 04-12-2010 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916266)
Mystic you called the differences "irrelevant" earlier in reference to your stance on official recognition affecting freedom of association rights for expressive organizations, which ignores the equal protection analysis. What say you about equal protection? Seems like a university would have to have disciplinary sanctions to get around the EP argument, so I'm not comfortable this holding would be applied in other courts, at all.

It doesn't ignore the equal protection analysis, it's part of the equal protection analysis. The court in Iota Xi Chapter found there there was no deprivation of expressive associational rights because lack of recognition in no way affected the rights of the chapter's members to associate with each other. If there is no deprivation of rights, there is no valid equal protection claim.

Equal protection is also where similarly situated organizations come into play. The chapter would have to show that it is being treated differently from other similarly situated organizations, which would in this case be other chapters attempting to come onto campus.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1916275)
Equal protection is also where similarly situated organizations come into play. The chapter would have to show that it is being treated differently from other similarly situated organizations, which would in this case be other chapters attempting to come onto campus.

Isnt that rather the point to be made? Kappa Sigma is not being allowed the same rights as other similarly treated organizations? Until very recently, they were even denied access to the applications necessary to become an RSO.

What makes that interesting; is the school then turns around when asked and claims Kappa Sigma never applied... only interesting, when they weren't allowed to apply.

Put aside where they can or cannot be for meetings... what are your thoughts on equal access to even attempt to apply for any recognition (either by school or IFC)

MysticCat 04-12-2010 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916280)
Isnt that rather the point to be made? Kappa Sigma is not being allowed the same rights as other similarly treated organizations? Until very recently, they were even denied access to the applications necessary to become an RSO.

See my earlier comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1916191)
I'm also aware that many of us on a message board may have a very incomplete understanding of what has actually happened at FGCU, and that a better understanding may change our thinking (including possibly my "similarly situated" argument).

Judging solely from the not-always-consistent description I have seen here, I don't think I see a real equal protection argument.

LaneSig 04-12-2010 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916081)
Lane, I have said multiple times- we chose our own actions. We knew challenging university policies would be a tough and long road. Those are our decisions and we stand behind them. This is another acknowledgment that we are here because we choose to be.

Now, where we disagree is the effect of challenging those "policies" and that's what I am trying to convey. FGCU shouldn't be worried about us following any legal and fair "rules." Like I've said before, we will follow rules that every other organization has to follow, such as turning in rosters, attending seminars, keeping officer information up to date, etc. Those are "rules" to follow. But telling us we're not welcome on campus is not a rule to follow, it's a denial of rights. We are standing up for our rights. I'm trying to convey to you the difference between the government requiring you to register to vote (a rule) and denying you the right to vote. Refusing to register to vote is bucking a rule, but we weren't even given the option, we were told you can't vote. See the difference there? We can't "follow wishes or policies" of FGCU that amount to being denied our right to exist, that is not being given a rule to follow.

"Blameless" isn't the issue, we are standing up for our rights, and want to address the legality of FGCU denying the undergraduates students in kappa Sigma official recognition. We have the right to do so, I hope you agree.


Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916040)
LaneSig,

Choice #2 isn't "Eff you!" on our part. Do you label everyone protecting their 1st Amendment Rights this way? We were told "Eff you!" by the school. It's hard trading points with you because of your lack of understanding for what is going on here. If a group is protesting on a public sidewalk, and the police tell them "No" or "Eff you get out of here," and the group persists, then who is right? You may not like what we have to say, but you have to accept the fact that we have the right to say it. See the difference there? We never said "Eff you" we respectfully said this is the United States of America and under the laws of this country, you can't deny us the right to freely associate, and thus we support the young men on campus who want to be a part of our organization. We are sticking up for our rights, what do you not see about this? If your local city government put a gag order on your First Amendment rights, what would you say? Why on earth would you stick up for the government violating the rights that for centuries we have fought so hard to protect. Contrary to Princess' statements, you wouldn't make anyone I know proud. All you are doing is condemning these kids for standing up for themselves. Challenging the system is difficult, and there are many naysayers along the way. We did choose our own path, but like I said before, we aren't afraid of the struggle. You should be ashamed of yourself as a United States American.

MysticCat, since you are legally educated, can you please drop the bias for one second and help progress this discussion along? Yes, I'm asking for a neutral statement from you since all of you who have been on this Greek Chat thing for years seem to stick together. Please describe the difference to your cronies between disagreeing with a message and disagreeing with the right to present the message.

Rambler, it's nearly impossible to conduct intelligent and constructive discourse on this thing. All anyone wants to focus on is the negative. Not one person will stand up and say "Although I disagree with your stance, I acknowledge you have the right to say it." LaneSig's example #2 from above is the perfect example. He describes our actions in defending our right to equal protection as saying "Eff You." You can't get anywhere in a conversation when these people fail to understand the basics of our Bill of Rights.

Okay, so since I don't agree with your position, that makes me a person who no one you know would be proud of and un-American? I thought one of your points about Kappa Sigma was that it was okay to disagree and not want to go with the flow. That's part of your argument about Kappa Sigma's stance with FGCU. But, apparently it only applies to Kappa Sigma and not people who disagree with you.

I never said that the stance of equal protection is "F--- you". I said that when they asked you to wait - whether they gave you a time frame or not- your actions of going ahead and colonizing was a (metaphorical) "F--- you." Not the latter actions, but the initial action.

So, I'm actually going to far as to quote myself. I gave clear thought in showing what the initial actions were that led up to the point. However, you chose to focus on Choice #2 and ignore what might have possibly happened with Choice #1. You also chose to ignore the comments about your 2nd post where you questioned our fraternity/sorority memberships and did not realize that you are logging with a great many alumns.

I said it before, let me repeat: Until ryquis came misreading what I wrote (go back and look), this was a genial discussion and no one had said anything negative about Kappa Sigma, the colony, or FGCU. No one had called names. It was a factual discussion until that point.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig (Post 1915826)
Again, was not meaning to insinuate. But, one time you said that the Greek Life Office said "no" and didn't give any explanations and another time you said that you were told "not now" and the process they had implemented (invitation to fraternities) explained. So, do you see why your story would be questioned?

Okay- here is how I see it. In November, 2008, Kappa Sigma asked to colonize. You were told "No/Not now. We want to control to colonization process. We are inviting groups to present and we will select the best one for our campus." (roughly worded)

Kappa Sigma had 2 choices:
Choice #1 - "Wow, that really sucks. We really want to be part of FGCU's growing Greek Life. Okay, we don't agree. But, when you decide to expand IFC, we want to give you a presentation that will blow your socks off. You are going to beg us to colonize. You are going to be so overwhelmed by the guys we select, you'll want them to marry your daughters. We'll keep in touch because we want to be THE ONE!"

Choice #2 - "F--- you. We're going to colonize anyway. You can't stop us. It's our right."

Since the colony then began in December, 2008, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you chose Choice #2.

So, all the arguments about laws and whether or not you have to be in the campus IFC aside, you created your own situation and problems. As I stated in an earlier post, is Kappa Sigma so desparate for colonies that they had to colonize at FGCU? What would have hurt you all by waiting? Seriously, no law talk. What would have hurt?

If you had waited, you could have created a kick-ass presentation that showed what a great National Organization with Fantastic Members you have (and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I have many Kappa Sigma friends. A person who is one of my best friends - lay down my life for- is a Kappa Sig.) If you had waited, you would have shown the Administration how, even if you didn't agree with the process, you were respectful to it. If you had picked Choice #1, you probably would have been selected. You would have been welcomed with open arms by the Administration and the FGCU Greek community. They would have worked with you to ensure your success on campus.

But, you chose Choice #2. You chose the path of most resistance. You chose to go against the wishes of the Administration and fight them instead of working with them to help yourselves. You chose to tell them that their rules don't matter to you. Is it any wonder that they are throwing roadblocks up? If you chose to go against their wishes, why should the Administration think that Kappa Sigma is going to follow any rules set for the campus? The attitude of Choice #2 is "We're going to do what we want, when we want, and we don't care what you say or want." Do you understand that that is what this situation looks like to me, if not all of us?

As for Greek Chat, if you go back and start reading from the beginning, you will see that FSUZeta asked a simple question. I responded with the facts as I knew them. From what has been said on here, I believe in my initial post that I had the facts correct. Jenny responded with some extra information, being a member of the campus we are speaking of. It was only after a new poster, someone who ISN'T EVEN A MEMBER of Kappa Sigma came on and began blasting us, telling me I got my facts wrong, and was pointed out by 33girl that I didn't.

I defended what I said and spoke against his idea of the process. You then joined and told me that I didn't have one of my facts straight, telling me to be educated, not opinionated.

That's when you created your own problems with the members of GC. Your 2nd post began with questioning whether or not we are fraternity and sorority members. Calling us children, when as I pointed out, we are mostly alumns. Yes, a member called you a name. If that is how you react to a random stranger calling you a name on a chatboard, I wonder how you are treating and speaking to the administrators and Greek Life members at FGCU who are not treating you in what you see as a fair manner.

Sorry, but Kappa Sigma created their own problems on FGCU and you created your own problems with the members of GC.

And, you have never answered one of my simple questions: If Kappa Sigma does not wish to be a member of the NIC, why are they trying to get support from NIC members and using NIC resolutions as part of their argument?

And, for the record, read the last paragraph again. It is simple. It is not sarcastic in the least. I have asked you a couple of times and so has knight_shadow. Why do you not wish to answer?

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig (Post 1916287)
And, for the record, read the last paragraph again. It is simple. It is not sarcastic in the least. I have asked you a couple of times and so has knight_shadow. Why do you not wish to answer?

Add to that:

1) Are you an undergraduate, and if so, how are you advising the chapter?

2) What kind of legal background do you have?

LaneSig 04-12-2010 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916293)
Still curious as to why you would support universities being able to deny meeting rooms on campus?

And still curious on why you will not answer what was wrong with Choice #1 and why you refuse to acknowledge or answer why you are using NIC resolutions when you are not a member of NIC.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig (Post 1916301)
And still curious on why you will not answer what was wrong with Choice #1 and why you refuse to acknowledge or answer why you are using NIC resolutions when you are not a member of NIC.

I think that one should be obvious by now... We do not feel the school's position is correct. Kappa Sigma absolutely does want to be part of the FGCU greek system; and it is having its place there; as requested by the students.

Kappa Sigma made a decision to support the students who wanted this fraternities presence at FGCU, despite the uphill battle they knew it would be.

In terms of the NIC; each of the members at FGCU have given their support nationally to Kappa Sigma; even knowing that Kappa Sigma is not a member of NIC. I believe it shows that giving this support to a non-member; is evident that open expansion is the wish of all nationals. I believe that almost all, if not all actually gave this support in writing. The only one I am not 100% sure if we have a written letter from is Sigma Chi - however I know that they at least did provide a verbal pledge of support for Kappa Sigma at FGCU.
So, no Kappa Sigma is not part of NIC; but every member still supports Kappa Sigma.

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916314)
I think that one should be obvious by now... We do not feel the school's position is correct. Kappa Sigma absolutely does want to be part of the FGCU greek system; and it is having its place there; as requested by the students.

Kappa Sigma made a decision to support the students who wanted this fraternities presence at FGCU, despite the uphill battle they knew it would be.

In terms of the NIC; each of the members at FGCU have given their support nationally to Kappa Sigma; even knowing that Kappa Sigma is not a member of NIC. I believe it shows that giving this support to a non-member; is evident that open expansion is the wish of all nationals. I believe that almost all, if not all actually gave this support in writing. The only one I am not 100% sure if we have a written letter from is Sigma Chi - however I know that they at least did provide a verbal pledge of support for Kappa Sigma at FGCU.
So, no Kappa Sigma is not part of NIC; but every member still supports Kappa Sigma.

That's another issue that's irking me. All of the chapters are contradicting their respective I/HQs by voting against KS? Doesn't sound right.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1916317)
That's another issue that's irking me. All of the chapters are contradicting their respective I/HQs by voting against KS? Doesn't sound right.

I agree. And yet there is written documentation from them... (like I said, not 100% about in writing or not from Sigma Chi, but I know there is written support from each of the others). In fact, it was a letter sent from KA to the IFC president (a KA) that led to us having the meeting with the IFC, saying that KA does support Kappa Sigma and open expansion and in which the undergrad was told directly "it is time to right what been wronged."

All voted against, except 1. One did vote in favor (was secret ballot, so cant so who it was)

LaneSig 04-12-2010 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916314)
I think that one should be obvious by now... We do not feel the school's position is correct. Kappa Sigma absolutely does want to be part of the FGCU greek system; and it is having its place there; as requested by the students.

Kappa Sigma made a decision to support the students who wanted this fraternities presence at FGCU, despite the uphill battle they knew it would be.

In terms of the NIC; each of the members at FGCU have given their support nationally to Kappa Sigma; even knowing that Kappa Sigma is not a member of NIC. I believe it shows that giving this support to a non-member; is evident that open expansion is the wish of all nationals. I believe that almost all, if not all actually gave this support in writing. The only one I am not 100% sure if we have a written letter from is Sigma Chi - however I know that they at least did provide a verbal pledge of support for Kappa Sigma at FGCU.
So, no Kappa Sigma is not part of NIC; but every member still supports Kappa Sigma.

Rambler -

I understand the position that Kappa Sigma took. I really, truly do (despite your advisor calling me unAmerican and a person no one should be proud of).

The point I was trying to make in the post where I listed the choices is that even if you didn't agree with FGCU, Kappa Sigma still had choices. Can you see from an outsiders perspective that even if Choice #1 wasn't the Sunshine and Ponies choice, it would have gotten y'all where you wanted eventually. Even if the time frame wasn't clear. My point was, why was waiting such a bad choice? That's one of the questions I wanted answered.

Choice #2 is what many from an outside perspective are seeing. That you refused to wait (asked and denied in November, colonized in December) and in doing so, made it look you were not respectful to the Administration's wishes. I was trying to get your advisor to see how actions on your part might be looked at by the Administration and others.

The whole NIC thing. When advisor first came on, he blasted me and a couple of others with how we were not following NIC resolutions of open expansion. The point that I and Knight_Shadow have been trying to make to him is that it looks hyprocritical for a group that left the NIC to ask for NIC support and quote NIC resolutions, when you are not wanting to be in the NIC (not IFC).

No one here is against expansions or for colonies being treated unfairly. No one here is rooting for Kappa Sigma colony at FGCU to fail. But, your fellow KS brother is not winning your cause any fans.

KSUViolet06 04-12-2010 06:52 PM

This thread is way too long, Can I get the Cliff's notes version?

33girl 04-12-2010 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 1916355)
This thread is way too long, Can I get the Cliff's notes version?

KSigAdvisor is in this picture. He really is. Look hard.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...paign_dogs.jpg

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaneSig (Post 1916346)
The point I was trying to make in the post where I listed the choices is that even if you didn't agree with FGCU, Kappa Sigma still had choices. Can you see from an outsiders perspective that even if Choice #1 wasn't the Sunshine and Ponies choice, it would have gotten y'all where you wanted eventually. Even if the time frame wasn't clear. My point was, why was waiting such a bad choice? That's one of the questions I wanted answered.

Simply put; because Kappa Sigma was supporting the interest of the students who wanted to form as Kappa Sigma at FGCU.

Kappa Sigma didnt look at FGCU and wonder why there wasnt a chapter there; the students unhappy with the choices at FGCU contacted Kappa Sigma.

I dont think its an understatement to say that since college students are only students for a certain number of years; for Kappa Sigma to truly support these men, waiting an unknown amount of time was not the option they felt (and still feel) was best.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1916358)
KSigAdvisor is in this picture. He really is. Look hard.

Despite who or when a comment was made...(I think virtually everyone has been guilty of this at some point). Can I ask at this point we all get away from the bashing, and talk about the actual issue?

DrPhil 04-12-2010 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1916358)
KSigAdvisor is in this picture. He really is. Look hard.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...paign_dogs.jpg

:confused:

DrPhil 04-12-2010 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916362)
Can I ask at this point we all get away from the bashing, and talk about the actual issue?

No. What more is there to say about the "actual issue?"

33girl 04-12-2010 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1916363)
:confused:

Well since they're being so "discriminated" against, I thought I would add a pic of their compadres at the Birmingham riots.

DrPhil 04-12-2010 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1916367)
Well since they're being so "discriminated" against, I thought I would add a pic of their compadres at the Birmingham riots.

FAIL.

MysticCat 04-12-2010 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor (Post 1916297)
Still curious as to why you would support universities being able to deny meeting rooms on campus? In essence, you support fraternities being kicked to the curb all over the U.S. With no recourse. And by "curb" I mean all a fraternity could do is meet outside on the patio, but could still "assemble" there.

And I'm curious why you think that just because I find your legal arguments unpersuasive, I support fraternities being kicked to the curb with no recourse. One position does not equal the other. And just because a policy is bad or stupid doesn't mean it's unconstitutional.

I'm also curious why you studiously avoid answering simple questions put to you over and over again.

33girl 04-12-2010 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1916368)
FAIL.

Sorry :(

2nd try

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/q...ma87/llama.jpg

DrPhil 04-12-2010 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1916371)


LOL. Yikes.

I got what you were saying with the first one. You just have to be careful not to appear like you think there's anything laughable about the Birmingham riots.

33girl 04-12-2010 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 1916372)
LOL. Yikes.

I got what you were saying with the first one. You just have to be careful not to appear like you think there's anything laughable about the Birmingham riots.

Oh, I definitely don't. I think there's something laughable about a student who can't get a meeting room on campus comparing himself to people who weren't allowed to be admitted into most colleges.

SWTXBelle 04-12-2010 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1916369)
And I'm curious why you think that just because I find your legal arguments unpersuasive, I support fraternities being kicked to the curb with no recourse. One position does not equal the other. And just because a policy is bad or stupid doesn't mean it's unconstitutional.

I'm also curious why you studiously avoid answering simple questions put to you over and over again.

Oh, MysticCat - pick your favorite fallacy!

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 07:35 PM

MysticCat - did you see this part?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916280)
Put aside where they can or cannot be for meetings... what are your thoughts on equal access to even attempt to apply for any recognition (either by school or IFC)

I am curious your thoughts on this part

33girl 04-12-2010 07:53 PM

If I got it right, you did apply for recognition by the IFC and were denied, right? Since you all keep talking about a vote in which (allegedly) the chapter reps did not vote how they were told to by their national HQs, I'm guessing yes. So I don't understand where "equal access to even attempt to apply for recognition" is coming from. You already had that.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 1916394)
If I got it right, you did apply for recognition by the IFC and were denied, right? Since you all keep talking about a vote in which (allegedly) the chapter reps did not vote how they were told to by their national HQs, I'm guessing yes. So I don't understand where "equal access to even attempt to apply for recognition" is coming from. You already had that.

Not exactly. The school claims that Kappa Sigma has not applied; which is why they are not being allowed to use school facilities. However, the truth of the matter is; until the news story aired, the school refused to provide the necessary form to even become an RSO.

Being a student organization, and being a part of IFC (another student organization) are seperate issues.

In fact, no application has been accepted from either the school or the IFC. The vote discussed, was a vote called by the members of Kappa Sigma during the IFC meeting. No actual written application has been granted (prior to the news story).

Post news story, there is a current debate regarding whether or not a fraternity can keep its single gender status. On the RSO form, there is a check box on the form for fraternities/sororities (with no further explaination about gender status - except an email from the Greek Life Coordinator stating they would have to surrender single-sex status). We believe being denied that status, is a violation of Title 9 protetction.

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916361)
Simply put; because Kappa Sigma was supporting the interest of the students who wanted to form as Kappa Sigma at FGCU.

Kappa Sigma didnt look at FGCU and wonder why there wasnt a chapter there; the students unhappy with the choices at FGCU contacted Kappa Sigma.

I dont think its an understatement to say that since college students are only students for a certain number of years; for Kappa Sigma to truly support these men, waiting an unknown amount of time was not the option they felt (and still feel) was best.

I would hope that Kappa Sigma's expansion chair/committee looked at more than "OMG, this group of students that we don't know won't get the chance to be Greek!" when making the decision to expand to FGCU.

MysticCat 04-12-2010 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 1916377)
Oh, MysticCat - pick your favorite fallacy!

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I'll take inductive fallacies for $500, Alex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916387)
MysticCat - did you see this part?

I am curious your thoughts on this part

My thoughts are that I'm not sure how it matches up with the story as it's been told in this thread. And given what we've seen in this thread, I'd be curious to hear the school's version.

Beyond that, like I said, you can have your own lawyers (or law students maybe?) do research for you. I'm done.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1916404)
I would hope that Kappa Sigma's expansion chair/committee looked at more than "OMG, this group of students that we don't know won't get the chance to be Greek!" when making the decision to expand to FGCU.

Certainly, that was just the short answer. It wasnt a matter of if they could be greek or not, they could have joined other fraternities already established on campus; but they wanted Kappa Sigma.

Beyond that, Kappa Sigma requires a lengthy checklist be completed prior to being able to become a fully chartered chapter. Whether or not they have the same requirments, I'm sure this type of list is not uncommon in the greek system.

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916407)
Certainly, that was just the short answer. It wasnt a matter of if they could be greek or not, they could have joined other fraternities already established on campus; but they wanted Kappa Sigma.

Beyond that, Kappa Sigma requires a lengthy checklist be completed prior to being able to become a fully chartered chapter. Whether or not they have the same requirments, I'm sure this type of list is not uncommon in the greek system.

I was being facetious, but that comment does go back to some of the previous posts. It's hard to believe that KS is THAT hard-pressed for chapters that they couldn't follow the University's guidelines and wait.

And in my organization, having the university's approval is one item on the checklist. If the school is against expansion, we move on. If they tell us to wait, we will wait.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1916410)
I was being facetious, but that comment does go back to some of the previous posts. It's hard to believe that KS is THAT hard-pressed for chapters that they couldn't follow the University's guidelines and wait.

And in my organization, having the university's approval is one item on the checklist. If the school is against expansion, we move on. If they tell us to wait, we will wait.

You're right in thinking that Kappa Sigma is not that hard pressed for chapters. But, one of our earlier members once gave a speech that every Kappa Sigma learns, ends with "May we not rest contentedly until the Star and Crescent is the pride of every college and university in the land!"

This is something we still believe today.

In terms of waiting for university approval, that goes back to our original argument; we do not feel that the university has the grounds to prevent any lawful and peaceful organization from forming.

Now we push for the same rights, currently being given to those other fraternities on campus.

FGCU is a very young school, with an IFC that has only formed within the last few years. As a result, not every fraternity had to be "recognized" in order to form as a student organization; as there was no IFC to recognize them. With everything new, there are always things to be changed, as the initial rules or policies adapted from other areas, may not be right in the long term for that particular institution.

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916419)
You're right in thinking that Kappa Sigma is not that hard pressed for chapters. But, one of our earlier members once gave a speech that every Kappa Sigma learns, ends with "May we not rest contentedly until the Star and Crescent is the pride of every college and university in the land!"

This is something we still believe today.

In terms of waiting for university approval, that goes back to our original argument; we do not feel that the university has the grounds to prevent any lawful and peaceful organization from forming.

Now we push for the same rights, currently being given to those other fraternities on campus.

FGCU is a very young school, with an IFC that has only formed within the last few years. As a result, not every fraternity had to be "recognized" in order to form as a student organization; as there was no IFC to recognize them. With everything new, there are always things to be changed, as the initial rules or policies adapted from other areas, may not be right in the long term for that particular institution.

I think the bolded is the point of many of the dissenters.

Yeah, (general) you may think it sucks that these rules are in place, but that doesn't make them unconstitutional (as KSigAdvisor has stated several times). It's just one of those things that we as Greeks have to deal with. If (general) we REALLY want to get on FGCU's campus, we're simply going to have to follow the rules.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1916424)
If (general) we REALLY want to get on FGCU's campus, we're simply going to have to follow the rules.

Which Kappa Sigma has done. Despite what some may think, Kappa Sigma has followed every single rule set forth by the university and by the IFC. Forming a colony without recongition by the school (despite the idea they said not to form) is not actually a violation of a single FGCU policy.

I earlier asked, that if I am wrong on that point, (that Kappa Sigma has broken a written policy for FGCU) to please present it; as I am unaware of it.

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916428)
Which Kappa Sigma has done. Despite what some may think, Kappa Sigma has followed every single rule set forth by the university and by the IFC. Forming a colony without recongition by the school (despite the idea they said not to form) is not actually a violation of a single FGCU policy.

I earlier asked, that if I am wrong on that point, (that Kappa Sigma has broken a written policy for FGCU) to please present it; as I am unaware of it.

I meant that the group needs to accept the univeristy's rule (getting IFC approval before being approved as a GLO) instead of bashing FGCU and claiming that it's infringing on students' civil liberties.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1916429)
I meant that the group needs to accept the univeristy's rule (getting IFC approval before being approved as a GLO) instead of bashing FGCU and claiming that it's infringing on students' civil liberties.

And on that point, is where we're both going to disagree.

You can certainly follow what is written; but just because a policy is "accepted" doesnt make it right. A fraternity shouldnt have to ask permission from another fraternity (or set of fraternities) in order to form on a campus. Should they have to follow school rules, supply all the written documentation and not interfere with the education of any other student? Absolutely. But, the "rules" currently in place are by a student organization for that student organization to follow, not by the school itself. That particular organization does have the right to include/exclude membership from the organization itself; but not from campus.

I also havent seen a written rule, that says a fraternity at FGCU must be part of the IFC. This has only been explained orally; never in writing. (Granted, it's possible I just havent found the FGCU policy)

I repeat, IFC can pick and chose who it wants to be part of the IFC. But, IFC does not have the right to determine whether a student group can be on campus. That is the very reason the RSO application form has fraternity/sorority listed as an option; despite the questions of single-sex status.

That is essentially our stance on the matter.

VandalSquirrel 04-12-2010 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rambler1869 (Post 1916428)
Which Kappa Sigma has done. Despite what some may think, Kappa Sigma has followed every single rule set forth by the university and by the IFC. Forming a colony without recongition by the school (despite the idea they said not to form) is not actually a violation of a single FGCU policy.

I earlier asked, that if I am wrong on that point, (that Kappa Sigma has broken a written policy for FGCU) to please present it; as I am unaware of it.

Did y'all follow Article II, Section 2, part b for provisional colonies? (document last dated 12/08)

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...L_-_120908.pdf

From what I could google it seems that the Greek Life Expansion Committee has some input, and that may be the issue.

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...LEC_Bylaws.pdf

Lastly, is the FLA still operating as an umbrella org.? I couldn't find anything when I googled.

knight_shadow 04-12-2010 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel (Post 1916433)
Did y'all follow Article II, Section 2, part b for provisional colonies? (document last dated 12/08)

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...L_-_120908.pdf

From what I could google it seems that the Greek Life Expansion Committee has some input, and that may be the issue.

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...LEC_Bylaws.pdf

Lastly, is the FLA still operating as an umbrella org.? I couldn't find anything when I googled.

Is there a link to the RSO bylaws, Rambler?

I remember glancing at this, but didn't really read it. The fact that KS wasn't even offered provisional membership makes me think that there are other things that occurred that haven't been brought up here.

Rambler1869 04-12-2010 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel (Post 1916433)
Did y'all follow Article II, Section 2, part b for provisional colonies? (document last dated 12/08)

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...L_-_120908.pdf

From what I could google it seems that the Greek Life Expansion Committee has some input, and that may be the issue.

http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Gree...LEC_Bylaws.pdf

Lastly, is the FLA still operating as an umbrella org.? I couldn't find anything when I googled.

VandalSquirrel - There is nothing in the guidelines that discusses how a colony should be formed. Simply that if the IFC itself wishes to expand to a new chapter; how a new chapter would be recognized. There is a penalty section, that should a chapter initiate members without being recognized it will not be formally recognized for 3-5 years (depending on the situation).

Quote:

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 1916435)
Is there a link to the RSO bylaws, Rambler?

I remember glancing at this, but didn't really read it. The fact that KS wasn't even offered provisional membership makes me think that there are other things that occurred that haven't been brought up here.

If there are RSO bylaws, I dont see them listed on the Student Involvement page. http://studentservices.fgcu.edu/Stud...ement/rso.html


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