With all due respect, OtisAllan did not post that recruitment was down at every chapter, or at every campus, or in every conference/council, or in every region. He said "nationally". And while I know some of my fellow Southerners may not like to admit it, "nationally" includes the South. And all GLOs for that matter.

I will try to reply to several things:

1. I didn't know that Duquesne required Greeks to live in the dorms. I always thought it was a privilege for the fraternities. If its a requirement, then it goes to show that Duquesne tries to control the fraternities and sororities.

2. Duquesne and Fr. H have always have a love/hate relationship with the Greek system. Duquesne likes some of the benefits (student retention) that Greeks have to offer , but it always tried to control it or mold it to their liking. its no wonder of the recent changes from locals to nationals; probably enforced after the death of one Meredith Kenneff (Sigma Lambda Phi - local) at a party outside campus and postings of Kappa Sigma Phi brothers' pics on the internet of underage drinking. THE POINT IS THAT DUQUESNE ALWAYS TRIED TO CONTROL THE GREEK SYSTEM. there have been many changes in the greek lineup throughout the years. whenever fr. h doesn't like a group (in my years, it was the sheiks), he tried his best to undermine the group (constant reprimands, suspensions, charter suspensions warnings, etc.).

3. DU greek alumni are not DU or Fr. H puppets; however, I don't think they can do much except negotiate and ultimately follow DU guidelines. James O'Day is a member of Kappa Sigma PHi and the founder of Carnival (I believe). although they tried to keep the Kaps onboard, I was told that the battle was almost lost. ultimately, DU has the final word.

4. it seems that if DU is not destroying the Greek system, which it could well be, then it certainly doesn't seem to be helping them. i remember there was a lot of promotion and advertising to rush greek. it doesn't seems like it now. maybe both the Greeks and du officials have to sit down and negotiate before its too late.

5. DU students have always been apathetic. the millennia students and generation seem to be more like that because things are different. a reason to join frats or sororities was to meet more people. today, there are many different sites of networking (facebook, myspace, etc.) which seem to make students believe that the greek system is irrelevant. also, i've noticed that many people in this generation don't like to join a group and work for a group. they're simply not interested. I talked to some recent DU students from my nationality and asked them why they never rushed or pledged? they told me that there were other things to do. in the past, at least half or the majority of the members of my nationality group were part of the greek system.

6. locals vs. nationals: both can follow guidelines and if they hadn't, then why is Gamma Phi still around ? and why did Kappa Sigma Phi survive for so long? the problem is that DU want them to comply with everything. simple acts of "rebellion" like not participating in Carnival would make that group a target (like the Betas for example who ceased to exist).

7. Duquesne will get rid of the fraternities and sororities if they want to.

I will discuss other points at another time.

Hi Perdido88,

Duquesne requires all freshmen and sophomores to live on campus. From what I gather of my sisters who are now living on campus, Duquesne grew too fast and the more kids they took in the more they needed room for these students. Freshman are now living in Towers as the overflow continues.

Recruitment has gone very badly over the last two years for both sororities and fraternities. Many of my sisters assumed that their recent pledge classes would fill the wings. That did not happen. Juniors and seniors were now living in Brottier or on the southside and fr. H. wanted them to live back in Towers. They refused. Only 2 sororities now have full wings. Of 7 sororities only 2 have wings and 5 are now at half wings.

I don't know much about the Kaps or Beta's but I dated a Gamma for awhile. They are very small now...there has been an emphasis to only have national frats and sororities on campus...they don't want locals..period. And they make smart remarks like the head of Greek Alumni Council about locals. That seems to me to not be very smart since the older men and women who are greek probably support the university.

I do find it true,however, that there is more to do than just being greek although I loved my time as a greek member. Pittsburgh and the southside, according to my sisters who live over there, is growing and there is so much more to do.

I also think something has been overlooked. I HAD to work part time in order to go to college. My parents barely could afford the tuition and we received ZERO support from DU's financial aid offices. So, I worked...and went to classes...and worked some more...and went to classes. I was in a sorority but I worked for the money to pay my dues. And I worked to pay for my books, AND ROOM and BOARD. I didn't blow it on clothes, or makeup or purses like some of my wealthier sisters. Everything I made went to just getting by. That is why I moved to the southside. It was so much cheaper for me to split the cost of a house four ways. Yes, I paid for food and I walked across the bridge..no car, every morning to class. I left the campus at about 9:00 pm every night...and I WALKED across that bridge home or to my job.

I think Duquesne needs to evaluate the COST of going to school there. They wanted me bad enough to come to my high school but once I got there they didn't care or help me with any of the costs. I worked for everything I have and DU can be proud of me because I work now as a teacher.

Maybe Duquesne and Fr. H should think about that before they bully kids to live on campus.

DUgrad.. your story is just like that of many students that I remember at Duquesne. they wanted them so bad, but if they couldn't pay, they'd drop them like a sack of rotten potatoes. where were all the christian values that they claim to have? I went through some difficulties financially, and it was a hard time dealing with the lack of help at DU. I gotta say that i went to Fr. H after dealing with the financial dept., and he helped me out (I had been cut off unfairly from my scholarship), so I give credit where credit is due... however, it still doesn't absolve fr. h from other "sins" especially against the greek community.

wow.. freshmen at Towers... i guess enrollment is getting bigger also overthere.

that's too bad about the gammas.. they used to be a big fraternity.. likeable bunch of guys.. some of my friends were from that fraternity, and I still communicate with them. the locals always had it worst at DU because of their status. true, it might be easier to control a frat/sor. which has to respond to a national org. but the "national" org. of the locals at DU were the Greek council, Greek system, and DU itself. so basically, they're calling themselves incompetent and unable to deal with that problem. I can't believe that DU is not gonna have the Tau Delts (Tau Delta Tau), the Kaps (Kappa Sigma Phi), the Betas (Beta Pi Sigma), the Lambs (Sigma Lambda Phi)....

part of the problem that I found at DU, concerning Greeks, was the elitist attitude that many of them had. during my incarceration at DU, hee hee, I found that many people that joined a fraternity stopped talking to the friends they made during the period before initiation. I guess those times were different (1988-1992), and many frats/sorors. had the privilege to decide who was fit or not to join their group. however, this may have worked against the group because students later might feel that they're not gonna be able to become Greek. Rumors always stir around campus, and true or not, they always seem to have a negative impact. This brings me to the "horror stories" circulating around campus concerning initiations. These were never positive, and it was often used as a reason not to join a frat/sor. and even used with a certain amount of disdain. I remember one girl in our group tried to join a sorority, but she was not given a bid; later, she'd say stuff like "i'll never join a group where they're gonna do something like that to you", but of course, my friends and i knew better...

another problem that i found was that many frats and sorors. moved away from their principles.. the later students simply did not follow the tenets or principles which were the core of the foundation of their group. by this, I don't mean that if the fraternity used to be the Polish fraternity, then it should be like that. What I mean is that the values and principles of the fraternity should be represented in at least some of the members. This is something more than "so and so is wealthy and can pay the dues", that dude can play football and we need another one for the intramural, etc. maybe those persons who are deemed as not fit to join the frat (can't play sports, etc.) will probably be able to work the administrative or be representative of the principles and values, and thereby leading the other members in that direction; for example, like deciding in doing more community service when there are more parties or mixers scheduled. Now, I'm not saying that this is what is happening. But I think that it is part of the problem. a group founded with christian values and then turning into a full-time animal house is indicative that the members have strayed from the values that guided the earlier members.


many students and people today are simply NOT willing to join a group. they also do not believe in rites of passage like initiation. many do not see the benefit in doing something more than they have to (work, study, etc.). and the mere thought that they have to sacrifice or go through a harsh process is simply unacceptable... the youth of today seem to want to have it easier... they don't see the benefit of networking or X amount of time of sacrifice to X years of partying and community service. but I see ONE benefit that many people tend to dismiss... those in the Greek community have left a bigger imprint during their time at DU. one might find their names and pictures in the composites.. in their efforts during community services because they were part of a group. not many of us that weren't able to join the greek system can attest to that; although I wish I could have. Times are different now. I remember people wanting to join the Greeks, in order to have their pictures in a composite.. they thought it was so cool. now, that is no longer necessary for many of them.. they have their "composites" in their personal pages of facebook or myspace in the form of their avatars.

I agree with you about the housing and DU lowering costs if they want students to attend the university.


well, I've rambled enough for now. let me know your thoughts.

Perdido88 and others:

I want Duquesne to know how hard I had to work not only for my degree but what I went through as a student and working.

I left the campus each night just before 9:00 pm and walked across the bridge to the southside. I worked in a restaurant busing tables and then ran a scrubber in the back to wash the dishes. I did this every night except Sundays from 9 until 2:00 am. I got up each morning and hiked back across the bridge for classes and stayed on campus doing my homework and studying until it was time to go to work. I did this for almost 2 1/2 years.

I came out debt free because I worked...and no one gave me the time of day in financial aid.

Hi, this is my first post here. I graduated from Duq in 2006, but I am still there on a daily basis for grad school. I was very active in my chapter, and an advisor for a little while.

Yes, this is definitely a problem. After living on my wing as a sophomore and junior (and having the best time of my life!), I honestly needed a break from it. I don't think this says that I was lacking in sisterhood, but having 20-some of my best friends around 24/7 did not make studying or doing anything productive easy for me, since I get distracted at the drop of a hat. I moved to Brottier, so I was still on campus and involved with my chapter on a daily basis until the day I graduated.

The problem with housing is that if you're going to move off-campus (which is cheaper), you need to figure that stuff out as early as possible. Lots of people start looking up to a year before they will be moving... but you don't know if your wing is going to be full the next year until Feb./March or so. It makes things impossible to plan. And now, as a result of wings not being full, they have taken away Greek Sign-In privileges, which I can imagine is ANNOYING AS HELL during things like rush where everyone has to be on the wing.

And I know that people are saying recruitment is down, but honestly I think the situation (for sororities, at least) is pretty good right now. Two groups used to consistently not make quota, and now they are both doing pretty well. As a Rho Chi, I only had 1 girl drop from my group and everyone was happy with where they ended up. I think we need to look for some positives in the midst of negativity, because it's really not all bad :)

Greekie,

Thanks for your comments. It really is frustrating to read from people who graduated years ago about how bad things are in Greek Life at Duquesne today. I'm very involved with the system myself, and while there are issues, overall Greek Life at Duquesne is a good system.

The issues you have with housing is one that plagues everyone involved. You presented two sides of the coin that raise the big questions. First, it's expensive and you have to decide about it too early. Second, if you lose the wing, the sisters/brothers are still living there but there no Greek Sign-In and no ownership of the wing, which makes it no different than meeting in a room in College Hall or Bayer.

Perdidio88 asked/suggested before that it's a requirement that Greeks life in the dorms. It's not. It's totally optional, and it IS a privilege to have a wing.

At the last GAC meeting, I asked each of the group representatives to survey their undergrads and find out if the groups even WANT wings. They are a hassle to fill and their biggest benefit, aside from the daily living with fellow members, comes during recruitment.

So, are they a really good recruitment tool and nothing else? Or are they the best form of group living that students want, just overpriced and under-served??

It's an interesting question. I'll let you know what I hear back from the groups!!

Craig

I agree! According to some posters, if you have anything positive to say, you have had a drink of the kool-aid (or hater-ade...), which is disappointing.
The Greek Life system at Duq is obviously not perfect, but it's not horrible either. If you want to actually fix things, why would you think that sitting around your computer complaining is going to help? And if you graduated years and years ago... well things have probably changed since then, and if you're getting all of your information from the one person you still know in greek life, that information might be a little skewed.
I guess my main thing is, unless you're willing to help fix any issues you see within Greek Life, you are not helping by talking about it on here. Greek Life at Duquesne will benefit more from active alum that are involved in their chapter than alum that post things for the world to see that focuses on the negative aspects of our greek system.

Good God, can't you people get this straight?

That comment was in response to DU Greek condemning local groups across the board and spouting comments that he obviously had regurgitated from anti-local fraternity headquarters or college administrators. It had NOTHING to do with anything at Duquesne, other than the fact that it made anything else he said suspect in its authenticity. When you say something along the lines of "a dog attacked me, so all dogs are vicious" it doesn't bode well for any other opinions I might hear come out of your mouth.

33Girl:
Your post is sooooo funny. I would like to know if anyone, anywhere at Duquesne gives a straight answer to anything!!!! You are right; the remark you made was in reference to local vs. national greek groups. DU Greek put out some strong sentiment, somewhat eronously, that locals did not count and they had no place on Duquesne's campus. Gamma Phi is the only local fraternity left at Duquesne to my knowledge.

I am sorry if others don't want to hear the truth about the university greek system but until someone, somewhere on that campus begins to work through the problems, instead of shoving them under a rug like they have been doing on housing for years then this chat site will not go away. I will continue to speak for my sisters who have no other way of reaching out to the administration. They talk to Fr. H and he does not listen. They talk to the Greek Life Director and she does not listen. There is no other venue but here on this site.

If someone can produce a different place to air these issues...recruitment, housing, etc. than you tell me who I should go to and I will be happy to write a letter to them. Until then, this is the only place my sisters feel they can vent.

33Girl - my apologies for confusing your statement. However, there are a lot of people on here who insist on only seeing the negative, so I still think what I said is true.

DUgrad - your sisters are not venting here. YOU are venting here. My main point is, what do you think is going to get done by you complaining about our school's greek system on a website?
Every semester, the executive boards of each fraternity and sorority meets with Father Hogan. While I don't love the man to death, he really did listen to us about housing issues (when the doors were put in, the middle wing was swiping in and using our washer/dryer) and in 2 days the problem was fixed.
It's just disappointing to me that a fellow alum thinks that this is the appropriate place to whine about our school's issues.

Look, I love my university...I always have and I always will. My sisters fear reprissal and they have gone to their campus adviser. She shrugs her shoulders and says there is nothing she can do. Our alum are non-existent. Fr. H does not want to hear about housing except fill the wings...with whom? Sisters who cannot afford to live there? Are they to start asking at recruitment,"Can you afford to live in Towers your junior and senior year because if you can't we don't want you?" Is that what this is coming down to? While all sorority chapters, including mine, took quota the largest freshman class came in and the smallest number of women when through recruitment..why?

Quota changes from year to year...I think last year at IUP all chapters took quota, as well...quota was 2. (That means 20 women completed formal rush) Just saying that while everyone taking quota is a good thing (it means the sororities are all on an even par as far as formal rush is concerned), the better indicator of the health of the system is whether all groups are at campus total (or ceiling as some places refer to it).

It is not an issue of seeing only the negative. It seems that it is reality too. I have personally communicated with alumni from the afore-mentioned fraternities, who are in pittsburgh dealing with that situation..

i gotta say.. you sycophants have been drinking the hate-rade too. Getting "frustrated" over what alumni who graduated many years ago ... and belittling the feelings of another alumni as "venting". This is not the way to handle things either. We as alumni are very much in touch and interested in what is happening with the Greek system over there. This will influence if we will give funds to the university. Explain to me, how is the university going to ask for funds from an alumni from the expelled fraternities?
Some of us HAVE DONE something, in order to deal with the problems of the fraternities and sororities at Duquesne. Let me RE-EMPHASIZE that I didn't join a fraternity at Duquesne, but I believe that the local fraternities and sororities ARE AN INTEGRAL part of the history of Duquesne. This is not merely ranting and raving in this website. What else is there to do? Well, I have communicated personally with Fr. H, who changed the subject many times to another topic: money (we need money to fix Cricklewood/citiline/brottier, etc.). I sent him an email to discuss the future of Kappa Sigma Phi on campus, and to this day, Fr. H has NOT replied to my inquiry. I TRULY COMMEND DUgrad FOR STARTING THIS TOPIC... regardless of what everyone else says. Why doesn't the Duquesne website allow a forum like this, where the faculty/administration/students can express themselves? I have never seen anything like this at the Duquesne website.

This is it for now.

Calling those that aren't completely negative sycophants illustrates my point.

She was the one who said she was venting, I did not mean to belittle her, nor do I think that I did.

And I have every right to get frustrated about this. I worked my ass off to help make my sorority go from 20 sisters to 52 (capacity) when I was in school, I was a pledge mom, a recruitment counselor, and a panhellenic delegate. I truly want what is best for the greek system at my alma mater, and I don't doubt that the rest of you do, too. My main point is: WHAT DO YOU THINK IS BEING ACCOMPLISHED MY COMPLAINING ON A WEBSITE? Even if you did do other stuff, like contacting the school (and I commend you for being pro-active if you did do that), what you are doing now is not helping anything.

I'm really not trying to be rude or start a fight, but publishing your issues with Duq's greek life for anyone to read disappoints me as a greek alum. I found this site by googling "greek life duquesne." What happens when next fall, some girl or guy who is thinking about joining greek life googles the same thing, and this is what he or she sees? They are going to get a negative impression of Duq's greek life and may be put off from joining, which will just compound the problem. There are more constructive things to do to help our organizations.