It's a website Tom......not the be all, end all to everything that SAE does. Stop trying to be some investigative know-it-all douchebag. I am well aware of what our "National Policy" states..........because I know that you are referring to me. Everything I have stated is from my point of view or experience. I am not speaking on behalf of SAE nationals......so quit while you are behind.

Say what??
Tom, I know I have never said anything against my National and I do not recall anyone else doing so.

You may be confusing "IMHO/POV" statements vs policy statements.

And from what I have seen here, been told or read elsewhere, most Nationals will hold same no nonsense policy in matters we have seen here.
And we have not seen everything that is going on; both in these matters as well as many others that are going on out there at many other GLO's.

That doesn't make it right.

Hazing is illegal. There are other methods to go about establishing brotherhood bonds-- most things that you consider safe-hazing need only minor modification to follow your own fraternity's policies. Clearly, you are completely narrowminded on the subject believing that you are above the law, as well as the policies your own brothers have voted into being. But again, I suppose that is neither here nor there, because you believe you and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies.

i think the problem with most discussions on "hazing" is that you all refuse to agree on a working definition, which renders everything posted invalid

I never said I was above the law at all, nor did I say anything about "policies my own brothers have voted into being" or believing that me and the offending prestigious chapters are above such policies. If you can find where I said any of these things or actually commented on what me and my chapter do during pledgeship....i'd love to see it. However, if you are going to sit there and try to put words in my mouth, then you can keep your comments to yourself. I never made any of my comments from a personal perspective...I made them because they are true.

I actually have a very open mind about what goes on...clearly, you don't. I am well aware that hazing is illegal. I am also well aware that many chapters can get away with quite a high degree of things before they actually get into trouble. If you don't believe this, you are only kidding yourself. Do I think it is right for it to be like that? I don't know.....but its nice to have the ability to get out of some trouble IF it arises. You think Alabama SAE (our founding chapter) is going to get shut down for a minor hazing infraction...or because a kid or two got too drunk? Doubt it.

....Can I be you when I grow up? Seriously, you said exactly what I was too fusturated to properly articulate.

And an aside:

I guess I'm too narrowminded to understand why you would want to place someone in harm's way that you claim to care about, or that you want in your bond. I also seem to miss the point of humiliating/degrading someone that you want to join your society.

Well, it certainly appears you have a narrowminded view of the topic. Oh I forgot, hazing has to be degrading/humiliating/harmful.

Thank you

I stand corrected, I should have made myself more clear. I can understand why an organization would want its potential members to be closer and why they would use activities to cultivate that as well as a respect for the letters they hope to eventually wear.

However (and this is the part I should have made more clear), I was referring to specific catagories of the broad defination of "hazing" (the type that tends to get chapters in trouble). I simply don't understand it.

My apologies for the ambiguity.

LOL, you do not have to worry, he is always contrary.:D

He never had a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:(

Backers of hazing are becoming extinct.

Although this makes no sense.....as usual....mostly because you have yet to get a firm grasp on the English language at your old age..........I am going to assume that this should be translated as: "Has he never heard of a chapter removed from a campus for hazing (?).:( "
To this, I would reply : Yes, moron, I have heard of chapters getting removed from campuses. This is a moot point and has nothing to do with the current conversation.

Backers of the proper/traditional way to pledge a fraternity are becoming extinct.

.......and it is destroying the Greek system.

You art so funny and ???

You Cannnot understand, It was so very simple that even A Simpleton could read!

Forgiveth thou....for thou art having thee roughest time deciphering ye posteths.

Trying to figure if you are to funny or to ignorant?

Just being funny or stupid?

Well, everyone or a bunch can make their conclusion.

Did this compute?:o

I agree with macallan