While there is little data on this subject I imagine, I would guess the huge majority of hazing incidents involve things like what we're talking about. They involve lineups, dress codes, and athletic practices. I think the incidents where pledges are being beat are pretty uncommon. While the big incidents are the only ones that generally result in lawsuits and criminal charges, this little stuff is probably the reason for most University and HQ punishments.

We may differ in opinion, but I have talked to several older alumni from different schools, my dad and his pledge brothers (also all at UT)....and never have they mentioned being beaten, put in extremely dangerous situations, or any other things that I could see you considering "blatant" forms of hazing. I don't think these type things are longstanding traditions at all. Lineups, house cleans, early morning house calls, required dress, etc. etc. are what I have come to see as traditions that have been gonig on for a very long time.

I joined a local non-greek house at Whittier College that hazed the hell out of me. Hazing included physical calisthenics, getting hosed down with water and being forced to "play" in the mud, one ceremonial paddling that hurt like a bitch, an "orientation test" (being dropped in the middle of nowhere with pledge brothers and given $20 to get home), and doing offical greetings in public (lining up as a class and shouting "GOOD AFTERNOON BROTHER SO AND SO!" in unison in a public setting like a dining hall), line ups and isolated interrogations.

The "societies" at Whittier got away with all of this with implicit knowledge of the school because they were the big donors! Whittier is a small private school and it's the Society alumni that donate, in exchange the administration looks the otherway during blatent hazing situations. All the aforemented hazing happened ON CAMPUS (minus the orientation test), some Societies even had their pledges construct a beer sofa on the quad with empty cans that they had drank.

I joined Sigma Nu because of it's foundation on honor and non-hazing. Of course candidates are required to know the history of the fraternity but that doesn't mean we need to line up pledges and drill them, screaming at them when they slip up a word or two of the open creed. Line ups are totally ridiculous and create robots, not leaders. Pledges should be self-motivated. If a pledge isn't holding his weight and participating in his own fraternal education then that is what the Depledgement option is for.

Kyle, while some of that may be banned, I don't really see what the problem of most/any of it is. Seems to me all those things had relevant points. We did many things similar to all of those, and while difficult, they were also fun. People often speak about how hazing harms self esteem. "Hazing," done correctly, builds both brotherhood and personal confidence. It takes strong people and makes them into responsible and confident adults. My personal opinion is that if you can't handle it, don't pledge. There are obviously other places you can go if you want an easy walkthrough pledgeship.

Shiner-After seeing many of your comments, after a very long, hot, and tiring day at work, my first thought is that you may truly believe that what was done in say the 1800's is the only way to do things.

The trouble is at all too often "Hazing" is done just because.....NOT to build "Brotherhood" and "Personal confidence" ( which from your own prior posts is only your chapter house and NOT your National group).

All too often these days people get hurt or worse. Which is where the Risk Coverage that you love to be covered by your Nation comes into play.

But since Nations do not enjoy paying High premiums, that is where Risk Management comes in.

My old chapter, back in the day, came very close to crossing the line and we saw it, understood it and STOPPED it. We understood that while some negitives can be, if used in small amounts (like a line-up), one is far better to use positive matters.
And the reason that my house is now occupied by the Sigma Nu's ( I have met them and they are nice but...IN MY HOUSE LOL) is that they did not see it, understand it nor did they stop it.

Chapter houses of GLO, or any living group for that matter have to be smarter on how they handle personall matters. Just like the real world that is facing them down the road. Just like Law School for you Shiner and beyond.

Time for dinner and some very cold water.....

As we've mentioned many times before, the hazing in Southern chapters is primarily to build values (that one should have anyways before the fraternity and so therefore not difficult).

Jon, I understand much of what you're saying. As a former risk director for our IFC, I know the situation universities and HQ's are in. However, I don't feel that covering their bases is an adequate reason for a lot of the rules they impose. Much of it has little to do with physical hazing, and more on the idea of protecting self esteem. Basically, this is what I think should be done. I think HQ's should obviously be against hazing, but should take action only when the hazing is dangerous. The same with the Universities. Basically my problem is not with them covering their ass, but rather with the general sentiment coming from our HQ's and Universities. I don't want them to go "We recognize the value of beating kids," but I would like to see the end of them interpreting pledges as some fragile impressionable youth they have to protect from emotional damage. These guys are men, and they should be treated as such. Another reason I argue for the value of hazing is that many on this site really don't understand that it does work. Ask the military. Ask politicians, lawyers, doctors, and our fathers. I'm not asking that we be given free reign to beat the crap out of kids, I'm simply asking to not get in trouble for making pledgeship a journey rather than cakewalk. I think pledges should come out of pledgeship as changed, fraternity men. Thats how we operate, and we consistantly see our new brothers have more confidence,more loyalty to one another, better manners and improved social ability.

On another note, a lot of people accuse us "fratty" posters of wanting to return to the 1800s, or 1950's, or whatever. You're not entirely wrong. Sure some things are better, but many things are not. I wish we had the respect for one another we had during those times. I wish the personal responsibility of earlier times existed today. I long for lower crime and better social etiquette. Just because things bring about diversity or are "progressive," does not make them good for society. So while I obviously recognize improvements we've made from previous times, I also recognize where our society has declined.

Exactly....

So bringing back some sort of segregation to limit diversity is going to improve something? I don't think so. As one of a very few members who actually remembers the 50's (I don't think any of us were here in the 1800's), things are a hell of a lot better today.

Medicine has improved giving us longer lives and better lifestyle, our kids don't worry about global nuclear war and have disaster drills sitting in the hallways of their schools covering their heads with their hands, technology has given us better appliances, better transportation and a lot of other things. We are, as a whole, better educated and much better off economically.

As for respect, if there's less now (and there well may be), I believe that has more to due with the highly competitive nature of our society than anything having to do with diversity. Peoples lives and professional careers are much more intense. I can't prove it, but my feeling is that, because of many of the factors above, we're much more driven and take less time for "neighborhood" stuff. That's not diversity.

I suppose there are some things that are worse, but I'm having trouble thinking of them.

Heck no! They just worry about their parents going to work and not coming home because terrorists blew up the building!

In all seriousness, I remember thinking one day how cool it was that little kids were looking at the "fallout shelter" signs and having no clue what they were, not too soon after that 9/11 happened. We're never going to be free of danger totally.

Sorry to hijack, but I thought I would get that one before someone else did and was a lot meaner about it.

Trust me, we knew what they were.

Sure, there will always be something to worry about...but the doctrine of two or three "superpowers" overbuilding their nuclear capacity to the point of destroying everything on earth two or three times over, and the spectre of Kruschev banging his shoe on a podium yelling "We will bury you," was pretty terrifying for a kid.

I meant little kids NOW, silly. :)

AhHa!

I understand now what you are saying, and agree completely.

I hope they finally got rid of those big containers of water and stale crackers that used to be in the fallout shelters, too.

I have to admit that watching news reports with folks in Israel running into shelters brought back some bad memories.

To be fair though, that whole "duck and cover" thing was just to make people feel better. I watched a video in my history class from the time, and they had kids ducking under raincoats in gutters. Everyone was going to be blown to little glowing bits anyway.


/Magic lead-lined raincoats of steel?