Calling a non-white person white, and calling a female a brother are 2 totally different things. I am a female BROTHER of the fraternity. When we say brother we are not saying it in the sense of manhood, just brotherhood. Like all men are created equal...it doesn't refer to just men but mankind, which includes women. When you call a female in APO a sister, you lessen her value to our fraternity (IMO). Women worked hard to earn membership in this fraternity and I for one appreciate that.

To Jackiepie,

DO YOUR THING!!! It sounds like you are holding down your position. Keep up the good work. You did the right thing by running for a leadership position. You are completely right, if I have to pay my dues, I will take advantage of that and run for a position. Good Job!

I think the main concern of the brothers is why the heck the school would make you guys join a council. We understand you are making the best of the situation you are in. We are not faulting you. I am not faulting you. I don't question your ability at all. I question why the heck the DoS did this. I think a lot of the anger is not at you (not from the APO brothers who responded), but at the DoS and why he chose to go against our National Bylaws.

Keep holding down your position!!! Good Luck. You make me proud! :D (i know i know, i'm really sappy)

In L ,F, & S...

This is an odd thread.

This is my take.

If the IFC is a Council of male greek organizations with the exception of APO, then APO should not be on it. If the IFC is just random Greek letter organizations . . . then APO fits in just fine.

However, if the DEan of sTudents put you on it . .. well there you are. And I would assume the dean of students did it for cynical reasons.

These are the basic reasons. APO is not a male exclusive social fraternity. APO doesn't have the same purpose, operations, or concerns except in the most general ways. Therefore membership in APO does not automatically grant insight into the plight of male social fraternities.

Now. That being said you might be an extraordinary leader in a general way, but we can't know that. We know you got elected but thats not necessarily a momentous thing in an intergreek council.

Unless . . . did you have to go to each organization on the council and present yourself in front of their entire membership?

Generally its not hard to make office on an intergreek council . . especially in the North East where such things are taken . . well . . less seriously by chapters.

Also, the things you are doing as the IFC president are not things the IFC are really supposed to be doing.

The IFC is like a trade organization, its not supposed to limit membership and its not supposed to regulate its members in terms of punishment. If it punishes more often than the school . . what use is it?

If self regulation just means that the IFc persecutes itself rather than have the university use sanctions . . then the IFC is pointless and should dissolve.

If anything the IFC should be an advocate for its member groups . . much like a union.

As far as the alcohol and party programs that you have instituted . . . I admire anyone that does anything they think is constructive, but surely you know that each of the National organizations have in depth social policies and programs that probably go way beyond what the seminars you are presenting?

Unless you are actually teaching people the actual mechanisms of having a party such as where they can have one, who to contact, the expenses, and all the detail work of it?

Anyway, have fun being president and good luck.

Exactly what I think. i don't understand how a member of a SERVICE organization with completely different national rules than any other IFC organization can even begin to run that council. From the earlier posts made, I don't think she understands what it means to be a social or what socials are all about. From looking at your school's website, they allow professional groups to be on their own w/o a council. Personally I think a great thing would be to push for your group to be accepted as a com/serve honors group instead of a social group. Unless the social aspect being on the council is so much that you wouldn't want to leave. Seeing as soo many greeks I know are APO and ____ (NPC,IFC, MGC, NPHC) I think something must be done so that your members are not limited to just APO. Something is going on there that is just not right.

I have much love for my Z-Chi sister-Greek! You are too right here! Why in the WORLD would other GLOs on this campus not accept members of APO?? Membership in APO and a social GLO should be complementary, serving the individual and the "greater good."

Jackiepie, you mentioned something about APO being a "viable" organization. That has been under my skin since I read it. What's wrong on your campus that APO's viability would be challenged? (I do recognize the whole "real Greek" debate but for APO it shouldn't even matter. Do the opinions of uninformed people bar you from dedicating yourself to leadership, fellowship and/or service? If not, let it go.) Or are you saying that APO should be equally social and service so as to preclude the need for membership in a social org?

On the latter, for some people, APO is more than enough but I should hope that the general membership of our fine fraternity doesn't feel that they have to choose between our service organization and a social organization - or, in my case, a service-social organization.

I'm sure you're not saying it, but it sounds to me like you're bringing into question the need for social fraternities and sororities altogether. Then, with the comments about parties and drinking, you drive the point home.

Actually, when most of us talk about our organizations we refer to them as our fraternities. I have never called Alpha Phi a "womans fraternity" or even, which might be more likely, a "women's fraternity."

Is this becoming a moot point by now?:(

Or maybe a MOO point? You know, it's like a cow's opinion.

Hello and Yes

Dont over cook the eggs for dinner!:p

Oh OK, sorry for the confusion.

I'm not sure "viable" is the word you want in this example.

Hmm, I think it is kind of funny that so many people on this board have a huge problem with the way social fraternities at Rowan are represented yet the actual social fraternity members at Rowan don't really care and elected Jackiepie anyway.

I think it is just another example of how each campus has such a different personality and culture.

I like hearing the difference in opinion, but I disagree with what rocketgirl said.

I don't think that I would have any right, even as a member of Alpha Phi Omega, to tell Jackiepie that her chapter should push to be accepted (probably meaning categorized though) as a service group.

Maybe that chapter is more similar to a social fraternity than a Circle K for example. If it were my chapter, I would take offense to rocketgirl's suggestion because I would know what my chapter dynamic is better than an outsider would.

I think one of the benefits of a PHA or IFC type organization is that it provides a forum for like-organizations to interact. It seems exclusionary for someone who doesn't even belong to that campus to make as assessment of who should and shouldn't belong.

Each chapter of Alpha Phi Omega has its own personality. If they want to be viewed in the same light as social fraternities, so be it. It is not my place to tell ANY chapter how to be classified or how to govern itself, especially if they have their act together.

Yes, it provides a forum for like orgs to interact. Solely due to the fact that Alpha Phi Omega has men and women - not to mention the differences in membership policies - it isn't a "like org" in a council full of all male groups.

Like I said before, if you mention APO to someone (who knows about the different groups on campus - I don't mean a random peson who doesn't know Alpha from Zeta) and "service" isn't the first thing that comes to their mind, IMO that chapter does not "have their act together." Of course we want to know people that APO does have a social aspect and that we have fun and do care about each other as brothers, not members. But when the social overrides the service, there's a problem. Go to our website, and there it is: "Alpha Phi Omega National Service Fraternity."

Jackie said herself that APO members cannot get bids from social fraternities because of their APO membership. APO members should not ever have go through that or be made to feel that way - by members of other fraternities or by their own brothers. I know we (and probably every other chapter in the country) had the occasional brother who said if you joined a NPC or IFC you were a traitor, should choose between the two, etc etc. If you (univeral you) feel that way, fine, but that should be everyone's individual choice and not something forced on them. I think that happens in every group but because APO is so diverse, it's probably something we have to deal with a lot more.

I am not trying to tell them how to govern themselves or how to act...but I am saying that APO as a whole from every member I've ever met and from the way they were on my campus is service first. My other concern is that if they are meeting this basic principle, then they are nothing like the socials they are on the council they are on by pure definition and national bylaws. Obviously it would be hard to exist on a council of people with completely different operation procedures than your own. It would be even harder to govern that council.

Nobody is saying that all APO chapters are the same...just like nobody thinks that all social greek chapters are the same. But all chapters should be following the same set of guidelines nationally that govern what they do and how they exist in an operational sense.

I think just because an Alpha Phi Omega chapter maybe be just as social as service based, doesn't mean they are in error. Not to deflect from the thread, but we have several all-male chapters in existence, one specifically on a co-ed campus that continues to be exclusively all-male in their bylaws. That is probably one of the strongest chapters we have on a national basis.

I don't think that each chapter has to be uniform in that it is co-ed and focuses ONLY on service because I have seen many chapters flourish that didn't fit into that mold yet still have their act together.

Rocektgirl, I see the point you are trying to make, but that is not how things work with Alpha Phi Omega, at least not right now.