Oh, I definitely agree. I'm certainly not holding her up as a model of responsibility because she isn't. But in that case, I think the abortions were a responsible solution. Her main argument for not leaving the boyfriend was that, as she had no driver's license and no car, and he was the one that took her to work, without him she would have no income. I'm sure there was some "But he LOVES me, he just gets out of control sometimes" traditional abused partner rhetoric in there too.

This is getting into a whole 'nother subject entirely, but this is why I feel you should never, ever get too dependent on your boyfriend or husband -- it gives you an excuse to stay in bad relationships far longer than you have to.

OK I remember when I was about 4 months pregnant with my son in 2002 there was case in CA (I think??) where the girlfriend wanted to have an abortion and the boyfriend (and his mother maybe?) took the girl to court to prevent her from having an abortion. They ended up losing and the girl had an abortion anyway. Needless to say, they aren't together anymore. Like sugar and spice - I think a woman should take the emotional feelings of the father into play, but a man should have NO legal say whatsoever, that would be like a woman decided randomly for a guy to have a vasectomy without asking him (not the same I know but as close as I could get).

I wish this was a perfect world where all women faced with unplanned pregnanices have happy endings like I did. I not only feel blessed to have one of my own and one on the way, but that I'm able to financially and emotionally support them. This isn't a perfect world though and most (not all) single women that do keep their babies without the father's help end up on gov't assistance and never finish their education. These would those people you bitch about to get a job so we can stop supporting their asses. Another issue entirely but still something to think about.

BrownEyedGirl,

I never said that a father COULDN'T take care of a child. I have a couple of friends who were raised by their fathers and they turned out fine but usually the mother is more nurturing than fathers. So, it wasn't a silly statement. I know a lot of people would prefer both parents to be in the child's life.

You're sorta taking what I said out of context. I didn't say I wouldn't die for my kids either. But personally I BELIEVE it's a woman's choice.

Furthermore I was telling Chump that I didn't think any woman should be told to suck it up and take it like a man. That's BS and I won't even go there! That's like telling someone dying of cancer to SUCK IT UP! HOW CRUEL!!!!

Heather,

My sincere appologies. I was going to quote you, and hit the "edit" button by mistake and edited your last post.

Since it no longer made any sense (I was quoting selectively and had deleted the major portion of the text) -- and was my thoughts instead of yours, I deleted it.

There was NOTHING objectionable, and I hope you will post it again. In fact, I was going to quote something I strongly agree with.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience -- just some Saturday morning stupidity on my part. I wanted to let you and anyone else who had already read it know what happened, though.

Of the many many single mothers I know (and am related to), NONE of them received government assistance at all during their pregnancies or afterwards. The vast majority of them were professional women before their pregnancies (all of whom were able to hire nannies), had understanding parents who were willing and able to take care of their grandchildren, had amazing employers who were cool with long maternity leaves and milk breaks--all of them thrived and succeeded with little or no help from the fathers. Your use of the word "most" is a vast overgeneralization, and insulting to those single mothers who don't want to be lumped in with the mythical Reagan-era "welfare queen." I do understand and agree with what you've said throughout this thread (and most others here on GC), but that statement just rubbed me the wrong way.

I think what the anti-choice people have to understand is that it's not a perfect world. Boyfriends and husbands beat, cheat, and leave. Condoms break. Personal biochemistries don't work well with the Pill. Girls trust their boyfriends when they tell them that they don't need condoms. Women get pregnant and are either so scared or so uneducated about the way that their bodies work that they literally go into denial about their pregnancies.

I don't like abortion--none of us here do. I've seen the ultrasounds of what happens during a D&C/vacuum aspiration procedure. I know what happens during a late-term abortion. It's a terrible and barbaric thing, but a necessary evil. Women have been aborting themselves since the beginning of times--and they will continue to. So, I will fight and die for women to be able to take care of what is a personal matter as safely as possible. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

I am not denying the realities of the world. I have seen first hand the horrible consequences of woman having too many babies too soon when they are not able to care for them. I know a couple of "miracle" babies that were conceived while their mother was on BC. Even with that, we as a so-called civilized society try to provide protection for those who cannot help themselves. We do not let landlords just throw people out of their apartments because someone came along with a better deal. We do not let people just kill their pets because they are a burden on them. I think when we say the life of an unborn child is not valuable, then we can go on to say that other lives are not valuable as well, and that thought scares me.

To me I guess it boils down to when is the fetus a "child". Because of my belief system, I think it is a child the moment it is conceived. All of the properties are there to make a baby capable of living on his/her own, it just needs to develop to that point. If you don't consider the "thing" inside the mother a child, then I can understand how someone would be pro choice. What's interesting to me though, is that some people who call themselves pro choice were also for having Scott what's his face tried for the murder of his wife and unborn child, or agree with having a drunk driver charged with "fetus-side" when they kill a pregnant woman and her child. Again, either it is a child or it is not, it shouldn't matter if it was wanted

I also find it VERY hypocritical of woman who say that a man should have no say so in a woman's decision to terminate or continue a pregnancy, but would FORCE the same man to pay child support if the woman decided on her own to have the baby. We can't have it both ways.

I was meaning - most single women UNDER the age of 22.....going for the ones that haven't finished a college education, or high school for that matter. I think my brain got ahead of my typing with that one. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Yes and no... because a lot of father jet after the kid is born. So, women have the child knowing thinking that the father is going to be around and then he isn't. As to his responcibility if he decided shortly after hearing about the pregancy/child that he wishes to revoke his rights then... well... that's another topic eh?

However, i have to stress that man can NEVER have a legal say in a woman's right to choose. Because if he can force her to keep a pregnancy against her will... could he not force her to have an abortion against her will? Why not? It is a violation of her body either way.

Yes we do. It is called euthanasia. You can take your pet to any kill shelter and release it and they will euthanize it. I see it happen everyday. I have also had owners try and kill their own pet for one reason or another but that is another different topic all together-and yes they do get away with it 99% of the time.

So you get to wait until you "are in the position to adopt" but you'd have no problem with women being forced to have children that they don't feel they are "in the position" to have?

You are not allowed to kill your own animal instead of taking to a shelter? Kind of like cleaning up your own mess.

A bullet in the head and the animal is pretty dead.

Then give the child up for adoption. I get to wait until I am in the "position" because of choices I have made.

Why do you get to wait but women who want to abort, because they aren't ready, can't? Is that the prize for getting lucky and not having a surprise pregnancy?

*not meant to offend, just curious

huh?