I know you're being sarcastic, but yeah, it is.

A world where a white man with a prison sentence is more likely to get called back for a job than a black man without one, as if being black was in itself a character flaw -- that speaks volumes about how much we need AA in some form or another. Contrary to popular belief, our society hasn't changed enough in the past 50 years to be fair without it.

Then isn't Affirmative Action akin in some ways to telling someone who is depressed to slap a smile on their face?

You're dealing only with the symptoms, not addressing the fundamental problem that you've raised - I think this is what Librasoul was getting at, indirectly, but instead of being a reason for AA, I find it to be the most distasteful part of the concept.

Hate to drop the bomb on this guy, but hes wrong. It is about race I don't care if you are for or against it, thats how they get that "diverse community". And while it was hostile because it would be easy to see some people would be offended... I don't think limiting free speech is good (maybe having campus police there would have been better). If I have to deal with Fred Phelps and his God hates fags bullshit here at KU they can deal with the young conservatives!!

In a sense, yes. But trying to change how people feel is going to be a much, much lengthier process than trying to change their behavior. And no matter how hard we try, there are always going to racists out there. So what do we do in the meantime?

I think a more accurate analogy would be like a person who is depressed taking anti-depressants. It's a quick fix solution that changes the physical problems so things will be better as soon as possible, as opposed to tackling the more difficult emotional issues behind the depression, which will in the long-term be a better solution, but also take much longer.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sugar and spice
[B]I'm not calling them idiots because they don't like affirmative action. I'm calling them idiots because this was a horribly ineffective and verging-on-racist way of saying that they don't like affirmative action.


Ineffective???? Are you nuts? Are we (a bunch of people basically unaffected by the protest ) not sitting here on the 5th page of a thread discussing it? Is that not the point of a protest? To get your point out in the open? The fact that this is one of the longest threads in this community shows it was highly effective. I am not stating I am for or against affirmative action, but this was one hell of an idea

Also, what this article doesn't tell you, is that a good deal of the students in this conservative group were minorities. Take what you want from the whole idea, but I think this was a clever protest. Offensive? OH YES... BUT CLEVER.

I'm not arguing that it wasn't effective at raising attention towards the issue. But it wasn't an effective way of demonstrating why they don't agree with affirmative action -- as KSig RC (I think) pointed out earlier, it doesn't attack the way affirmative action actually works. Plus its message was too vague and easily could be misconstrued.

I also think that it wasn't the actual act that brought this much attention to the subject -- after all, other schools have attempted the same stunt with less publicized results. It's the fact that the school shut these guys down that drew so much attention to it.

Not to mention that 7 pages isn't really that long for a GC thread . . . especially one on race. :p

You said a "good deal" of the students were minorities themselves. What constitutes "a good deal"? I'm just curious. Also, I'm sick of people using the "oh, well, there were minorities doing it too so why do people care if white people do it" excuse. As far as I know, there's nothing saying that every African-American has to be for affirmative action, or that every minority has to get upset about things like this. But there's also nothing saying that just because some people of color don't agree with affirmative action or aren't easily offended by issues related to race, AA shouldn't exist.

To sum up: I don't think anybody, myself included, is saying that AA is the answer to everything. I don't think anyone is saying that it's a perfect system, that it's always fair, or that it's always implemented correctly. But given the way things are in America (see the article above for one of many, many examples), it seems pretty clear that something is needed to even things out. AA might not be the perfect answer, but it's more fair than what we had before AA, and it's the best thing we have right now.

How ironic...
 

I bet if the SMU students sold the cookies to African Americans for $1.00, this group would have collected a higher profit and would have been able to change those $50 bills...

Librasoul---

You can PM me if you want to discuss more... But it is pointless to see what an alternative is for affirmative action is from this type of forum because basically, folks don't know and really don't care... I care... But most other folks could not give a dayum whether they are sitting next to some one of another race, ethnic group, sexual orientation or etc...



On that note~~~

The 1965 Civil Rights act signed by President Lyndon Johnson states that all public services must provide equal opportunity and ACCESS to public accomodations... Thereby, ending segregation. Integration was an attempt to end public segregation in public services... One instrument that seemed to be a quick fix to this problem of segregation was affirmative action.

The public sectors that needed to be address were employment and education. Basically, if my taxes go to pay for these universities, then my child ought to have equal ACCESS to these services unless America was ready to dictate that they had 2 social classes... And back in 1965, America wasn't about to state that they did giving the Soviet Union the fodder it needed to have nuclear missles in Cuba--basically saying to the public--lookie hearrah, lookie heaaraah--the Americans are facists...

Folks, KNOW YOUR HISTORY!!! Most of what we are seeing are results of what our anscestors have levied upon our generation and generations to come to deal with and pay for...

Now, there are 2 ways I can argue for AA: Just like sugar and spice is doing with logical conclusions OR, break it down to one inalienable fact. Which one do you want me to do???

'Cuz really, there are tons of folks that got hella talent, there are only so many spots to put them into... What's a college s'pose to do???

Is the 'unalienable fact' that racism exists in America today? or if you choose, the stronger "institutionalized racism is prevalent in American culture" can be used, it's really up to you.

Either way - how does Affirmative Action combat the latently racist culture propagated by the majority?

NOTE: it doesn't. It attacks ONE symptom, and poorly at that.

If you're going to break the problem down to the least common denominator, that's fine - but then you have to address the problem on that level as well, which is a monumental task to be sure - so we better get started.

Well just like every other thing in our government - AA needs to be reformed. When it was instituted, it worked wonderfully, now we have over corrected the problem and are now stuck with a new one. REFORM!!

As for the bake sale - I think its great that the students were non violently protesting AA, despite what passing students thought. Most of what people felt were gut check first instinct reactions. Everyone was so quick to get defensive they didn't read into what they students were ACTUALLY saying.

Out of curiosity, in what way have we "overcorrected" the problem?

Also, AA has never worked wonderfully. Earlier in its history it relied primarily on quotas, which, if anything, make it a lot easier for AA to go in the wrong direction. These days quotas are illegal in the workforce, although I think quite a few universities still use them in some form or another. Schools aren't required to reveal their AA policies, so it's hard to tell.

How would you recommend that it be reformed?

ok AA was intended to level out the playing field so to speak with White vs. Black. Now the most 'discriminated' person is the White Male because of AA - thats what I mean about over correcting.

Reform, thats all I was going for there.

I'd like to see some numbers (statistics) from various sources to back this statement up. In my day-to-day work I don't see your statement as being true.

I just read almost this entire thread- wow-
My personal feelings are that the bake sale, however tactless, was making a point, albeit one sided. But that is the great thing about freedom in America, you can have a one sided mind and it is perfectly legal. Students didn't get their message, they just got offended, which I think is sad, because I think the group really was trying to get people to think about AA.

I have seen forms of racism going both ways; my brother, a middle class white male, lost a scholarship to a minority with lower test scores and GPA, and it was his friend. They even talked about it, but in the end what can you do? It was up to the selection committee. BTW Minorities were allowed to APPLY with 5 points lower than a caucasian on the ACT, 5 points is a lot! Talk about equal OPPORTUNITY?!?
I grew up in a prodominetly black neighborhood and when I went into stores I wasn't followed like my friends. It bothered them a lot and I didn't even realize it. I was at work the other day and two men came in that were african american and they wanted information on commercial leasing, but because they were wearing blue collar clothes one of my older female collegues wandered in our huge loop and came back up front to see "if I needed help" I assisted the men and they left and she asked if I was scared, and I asked her why, and she said POINT BLANK!!! "Well, two large black men, didn't you think they were casing this place?"
My reply "would you think that if they were in suits, or if they were white in the same clothes?" Ignorant fool!

So, in the end, I don't think there is a solution. There are always people with ignorant minds, and there is always injustice to someone. I love working side by side with people of all backgrounds, but honestly, in my workplace, there is only 1 female manager, the rest are all men. That bothers me a lot too.
I don't think that women should be hired over men, and I don't think minorities should be hired over caucasians- I also don't believe the reverse should occur, I don't believe men and caucasians should be hired or accepted into a school based on those criteria.
In a perfect world, the best candidates would be hired and accepted.
But this isn't a perfect world, in case anyone didn't notice. I am not proAA, but if you can come up with a better idea, let me know! Meanwhile, I can't think up a way to keep management diverse, schools diverse, and so on and so forth.
But I am not so sure it will matter in the future since the hispanic populations is predicted to be the #1 "minority" by 2050 and it may be possible that "whites" are the minority by 2120. At the rate things are going it looks that way.

ok personal example ~

My husband graduated 1st in his class from Fire Academy here in Dallas. His dream was to be a Dallas Firefighter --- is he one now? 3 years later? No. Would you like to know why? b/c he wasn't black, hispanic, or female. It worked out in his advantage though because he now has a higher paying job in the suburbs, but still his dream was taken away from him because he was a white male.

Ok that was just one example from here in Texas. You may not see it in YOUR work, but I see it daily here. I would also like to add, none of this angers me - the AA I mean. I don't see why everyone is jumping all over my ass because I suggested reform.

shit :rolleyes: