Well, the idea should be to reduce the number who are not prepared - to have admissions standards that do all they can to insure that those who are admitted are indeed prepared. The top 10% system doesn't even pretend to do that.

eta - the top 10% system seems to be a variation of throw it on the wall and see what sticks. I don't think it serves the students' best interests, and I don't think it is in the best interest of the university.

[QUOTE=UHDEEGEE;1748925]Auburn uses it for scholarships too. Some of the schools around me started giving weighted averages because too many of their kids were missing out because their grading system didn't allow for higher than a 4.0.

I may be wrong, but I think Peppy's point was also largely that the strength of your individual high school might matter a whole lot more than a really high weighted GPA.

You may be right, but I think schools have sort of given up trying to tell who is most objectively qualified, and since way more kids than they could possibly admit probably meet whatever predictive standard they use to determine who might flunk out, they just need a system to reduce the total number.

I understand what you are saying though. It seems that colleges could make much better decisions about the preparation and qualification of the students they accept.

I may have mentioned this before since it's one of my pet peeves. Every so often in Georgia the colleges, especially the less selective ones, want to give the high schools grief about the number of kids with who need remedial classes. What is so irritating about it is that anyone with even a passing familiarity with high schools in Georgia could tell you that a B average from certain schools means absolutely nothing in terms of academic preparation. Because we have the HOPE grant which gives a full tuition scholarship to any kid who graduates from a Georgia public high school with a B average, as long as the kid maintains the B average in college, at some high schools a B is almost the default grade. However, there's no way that kids at some of those schools are really doing B level college preparatory work. So, from a high school perspective, you just want to respond to the complaining about the lack of preparation with, "yeah, you admitted that kid with the data about how other kids from that high school fared in your program; how can you possibly try to blame the high schools generally for your failure to make tough admissions decisions?"

ETA: sorry for the craziness of some of my sentences. I'm kind of tired. I'll look at it tomorrow and see what I can do.

Speaking as an instructor at UT, I don't really see any evidence that students admitted under the top 10% rule are struggling at UT.

Do you teach many freshman classes? If not, I would guess that they are gone before they reach you. How many of your students drop per semester? It may be those who feel overwhelmed simply drop before you have much interaction with them. Or all of your students come to school totally prepared - which is great.

My comment was based on observations from friends (teachers) at other high schools, several students I know, and a series of articles. I know that when we tracked students who attended the community college at which I sometimes teach then transferred we discovered that they had higher g.p.a.s than those who had gone straight to a 4 year school. I'd say we pull from a mix of schools - but the majority are not high-performing schools.

I do think that someone should do an actual review of the students from a variety of schools to see how many of those who go to UT and A&M actually graduate. We track graduation rates for athletes - if we are going to discuss the 10% it would be nice to have statistics to help inform the discussion.

Ladybugmom-

I read your post and as a mom and a Recruitment Advisor I hope I can offer some insight. Not being a legacy should not hurt your daughter at all. In fact, at the school I advise at it is almost a strike against you! The girls feel legacy's have an attitude of "I'm in no matter what" The first thing we look for and cut for are grades so if you daughter has good grades that is a bonus. I will also tell you that if your daughter is shy or reserved it will make it a little more difficult. The girls that do really well during recruitment and have perfect recruitments tend to be the girls who are beautiful, envolved, good grades and light up a room when they walk in the door. Of course it doesn't hurt that they wear all the right things (cute, current stuff) say all the right things (act very interested and sincere and not look around, maintain good eye contact) and are generally warm and friendly. I could write a book after 15 years of doing this on the right way to look and act in a recruitment party. You should hear and see the comments that I hear on PNM's:) Tell you daughter to keep an open mind and not to listen to the rumors on what house are good and bad ect. Not all you hear is true. Good luck. She will have a lot of fun.

I have taught freshmen classes about half the time. Some of my friends have taught almost all freshmen classes. My boyfriend taught the intro writing course last year, which is essentially a remedial course, although the department says it isn't - but most students from prestigious high schools will be able to get out of this course, leaving some of the weaker admitted students plus nontraditional adult students and international students as the majority in these sections. Obviously this isn't statistical (and I'm not sure how easily we could really measure this - we could track students admitted under the top 10% rule, but that's almost everybody from Texas. And I doubt UT would track "students admitted by the top 10% rule from sh*tty high schools" or whatever rubric we'd need to actually figure it out.)

Like I said, the kids I get who are flunking out often seem to be A) Greek and drinking too much B) from the major cities, just like everybody else C) really homesick/having emotional/family problems and not going to class. I did have ONE student admitted under the top 10% rule, ONCE, who I felt maybe should not have been admitted to UT. She admitted that she was struggling a lot but she worked really really really really really hard with me and came to office hours every week to improve. Unlike my entitled kids from Dallas and Austin who slack off and then protest their grades at the end of the term and tell me their dads are lawyers, in ominous tones.

In my boyfriend's experience teaching freshmen writing, I should add, the adult students (whose HS credits have "expired" or are not applicable or whatever) usually do the best in the intro writing classes, followed by kids from rural high schools. The kids who usually fail are girls from Dallas/Fort Worth who come into his office hours and cry because they've never really been forced to do their own work before and skated by as student council president or head cheerleader or whatever. And the guys who go Greek. The international students try really hard but often are still working to overcome the language barrier, and end up somewhere in the middle.

I truly, honestly, wish I was exaggerating but I'm not. I think the rich kids screw up more often than the rural kids or inner city kids because the latter two groups are trying to prove themselves and improve their stations in life.

That said, I honestly don't find UT's undergrad courses to be particularly rigorous. In the freshmen courses especially, the difficulty is nonexistent (well, I do think intro writing is harder than American history intro), particularly compared to my freshmen courses at W&L, where I was probably assigned 3-4 times the amount of work assigned to my students. If you're really struggling in a freshmen course at UT, you're just not trying at all. I honestly feel that anyone who graduates in the top 10% could handle it if they tried (and I went to a small, crappy, rural high school myself, where I was valedictorian, and wasn't too impressed by all of the kids in the top 10%, honestly). I really think that most students' struggles - ESPECIALLY with intro courses - is due to emotional/personal problems or partying way too much. At W&L I didn't feel that way. I felt some students couldn't handle even intro courses because there was so much difficulty. I don't think UT students have much excuse.

Disclaimer: not that I think UT is a bad school. It's an awesome school and probably a jillion times more rigorous than most state schools. But it doesn't compare to someplace like W&L.

FWIW - my experiences are similar to yours, bg. The kids from Houston ISD have the least amount of preparation - the ones from the suburbs do much better, although none of them really have what I would consider a sufficient background in writing. I LOVE a returning student - one who has been in the "real world" and doesn't want to waste his/her time or mine.

One of the main ingredients for success is college is - attendance. My students don't believe me when I tell them that, but it holds true. It's the chicken and the egg, though - do you do better in a class because you always attend, or do you always attend because you are the type of student who makes the effort necessary to succeed? At any rate, I'm very proud of the fact that my daughter gypsyboots LISTENED to her mother, and the only class she missed this semester is when she had a conflict betweeen a freshman required seminar and her philosophy dialogue. She cleared it with the seminar professor, and attended her philosophy dialogue.

School work THEN play = happiness :)
Play THEN schoolwork = misery. :(

We were in danger of being on topic there for a moment!

Thanks so much for the information! I think my daughter will do just fine, as she will be more than prepared. We have already gotten at least 2 recs from each house lined up and we will go on major shopping sprees this summer. As far as writing a book, I wish there was one out there to help those going through recruitment to know what to expect. I have not directed my daughter to this site because frankly, some of the threads on here would scare her in to not going throug recruitment at all....:eek: I want her to go in prepared but with an open mind. She really doesn't have any pre-conceived ideas about any of the house so far.
As far as the top 10% rule, I had no idea my thread would spark such discussion:). My daughter does go to an affluent, highly competitve high school. I am certain that she is just as prepared for UT or A&M as many of the top 10% in more inner city or rural high schools. I do not know what the answer is, however in our case, it is disappointing to know that she can't get into UT (her first choice) simply because there is no room for her. Thanks so much for the lively discussion!:)

I totally agree! I am so glad that my daughters did not know about this site until after recruitment. One of them ( they are twins) did not want to go through recruitment, but the other did. They preffed 2 other different houses, but pledged together. Now, at their pref, the one who was hesitant about rushing speaks about her decision and how much it has enriched her life.
After choosing clothes, and getting manis and pedi, the only advice I gave them was to be very positive, polite, and NEVER say a negative about any group or person. Which is pretty much good advice for life.

Ladybugmom-

Are you in Texas? Did she attend any of the summer camps there? My daughter went to Camp Mystic and loads of the counselors were greek. They were always asking her where she got her AXO t-shirts from. Of course, I have a new supply every year because of being around during recruitment. If she has the camp ties that may help her to be on common ground. Just a thought.

Ladybugmom-
If OU is anything like our University here we have a tough time verifing grades...period! It has something to do with privacy laws. Also, we get unweighted GPA's when we get them. I would make sure your daughter has a copy of her transcripts with her just in case and send them with her recs. I have seen more than one PNM dropped from every house because the grades are in the system incorrectly.

Great advice! Thanks! As far as your earlier question, yes we are in Texas but my daughter did not attend any camps except cheer camp...every summer since 6th grade:). Between family vacations and cheer, she didn't have time for any other camps...

This is generally not a problem at OU. A transcript is sent to Panhellenic and the grades are verified and entered into ICS. A PNM will not be fully registered for recruitment until her transcript has been received and verified by Panhellenic.