Agrees about what?

Super! I will let them know.

Just to clarify - Elephant Walk, you are from which fraternity and school? I think I know the other players in this discussion.


eta -OH - now I get it. Thanks.

University of Arkansas.

The fraternity is of no importance.

Still waiting . . .and of course the fraternity is of importance!

Hold up.

You're from ARKANSAS?

And you're talking smack about northern brethren not being good enough.

To hang out with you in ARKANSAS?

Oh, the jokes, the jokes I'm holding back! But my northern etiquette won't allow me to take the cheap shots.

As the originator of this thread I had no idea it would create such a cat fight! I went to school in the midwest, have lived in the south and spend a lot of time in NYC and I see this from many perspectives. Many cannot imagine wearing a pig face and cheering "sooey"...find the attire and behavior of some southern men a bit sissy...or are offended by the brashness of a northeasterner. That's the way they all are. The ORIGINAL QUESTION is why do students in the southeast find Greek membership more valuable or attractive and join in much larger numbers? Please approach this more intellectually and give us your opinion.

All due respect, oldu, I think this thread is way past that and I don't really think your premise has a basis that will truly allow for "intellectual" discourse. You still toss in the words "more valuable" and "attractive" and "larger numbers" and you're just begging for the heat to flame up again. Even brief time spent on GC teaches that anything trying to define something 'southern' or 'northern' will go exactly the way this thread has gone.

Love sweet tea. Everytime I vist family in NC I make sure to get me some sweet tea. Anyway, with McDonalds serving sweet tea , I don't think you can use that test anymore as you can find sweet tea in the North now.

That's one way to look at it. The only problem is that a lot of the time they haven't gone through the same experience. From rush to pledgeship their experience is not nearly as intense. In our eyes, they haven't "earned it". Maybe it's just my fraternity, who enacted a 'Balanced Man' program that's met widespread criticism for lowering the standards of admittance. I talk to friends from other schools and there we are known as "Sigma Phi Everyone" because the chapters have a reputation of bidding anyone who walks in the door.

Obviously, this is not always the case. I have friends at Northern chapters of my fraternity and other organizations that I have a great deal of respect for because of the way they conduct themselves. It's those chapters I previously described they tend to 'cheapen' I letters that I take exception to.

I think that as far as that's concerned, it IS fraternity specific since that's a fraternity specific program.

In this case, a policy has been enacted that is directly having an impact on who is chosen for membership and how.

I really hope this isn't about me. In no way was what I said a "tirade." If it is about me, I would hope that anyone on these boards would understand the desire to defend their org (be it on the local or inter/national level).

Oh well.

You may say that, but as a Northern greek who knows many Sig Eps personally, I can say with confidence they are one of the top fraternities around, 'despite' their Balanced Man program.

So shut up. I can't believe I have to defend your own fraternity brothers to you.

Not as far as I know. I'm pretty sure they only sell unsweetened...at least in the Deep North.

lol to the "so shut up" post above. Good stuff.

THAT is what makes Greek life hot in the South: the fact that he is from Arkansas and your reaction to it. The average income per household may be lower in most (all?) Southern states compared to those in the North, but that's part of what makes Greek life so elite down here. You think he is some redneck wearing overalls, but it is probably quite the opposite, due to the fact that he is Greek. You don't see that in the North, where your average fraternity brother/sorority sister is more or less the mean as far as average income goes (from what I have seen). I'm having a hard time putting it into words, but hopefully that makes sense. Basically what it all boils down to is the fact that the lower the average income is, the larger the social class division gap is.

Uggh..

Snobby McSnobberson, you are in college right? You BASICALLY have never earned your own money and are living off of your parents. Quit with the I'm so classy and rich, because a) classy people do not talk about how much better they are than others, and b) really rich people do not talk about how rich they are - they've been raised better than that.

I never said anything about my own financial situation. What you quoted is true and everyone here knows it.

Applause.

Thank you, srmom.

I'm not sure what I said that was so offensive, but whatever.

The fact that you don't see how offensive it is illustrates further that it was meant with the most sincerely offensive assumptions possible.

Ask yourself this... if you think your brotherhood should be exclusive to only the *right* types of men (i.e. men from a certain wealth bracket because you think this corrollates to class) then what more is your brotherhood then a country club? And why should anyone in your fraternity feel "chosen" based on them as individuals v. their parents money?

To me, the fraternity or sorority that ignores wealth (besides the ability to pay dues) is the FAR SUPERIOR organization because it judges people based on who they actually are, rather than how much of their parents money is coming along with them.

Perhaps you and some of the other southern fraternity men in this thread could learn an important lesson on brotherhood from your brothers up north. My guess is that they wouldn't hesitate to acknowledge you as their unconditional brother like you have with them.

I was answering in the context of the original question. I wasn't saying it's better or worse, just that people (greek or non greek) view Greek life entirely different in the South for that reason. Most people here in the South who have little to no knowledge of Greek life don't view members of fraternities and sororities as drunken slobs, but as huge SUV driving, trust fund having rich kids. I'm not saying it's always true and I'm not saying it makes it better, I'm just saying that in the minds of non-Greeks that's how it's viewed. Therefore it's more respected by the community as a whole, because these kids are viewed (and are) as the future of the community (the lawyers-turned-judges, local politicians, doctors, mayors). I was answering the question in regards to why it is viewed in an entirely different light for the most part, by the communities as a whole. Hope that clears some things up.

Sig Ep struggles because of Balanced Man in the South. You've got to understand that it does not matter if "they are the top fraternity around" in the north, because they judge by different standards. In the South, Balanced Man is a detriment. It signifies inclusiveness usually. Fraternities are like country clubs. You don't want to join an inclusive country club, you want to join an exclusive one, to raise your social standing and so forth. Hell, Ole Miss Sig Ep took 90 one rush, am I correct? I believe it was close to that.

In my opinion, the top fraternity scenes in the nation are in Alabama and Mississippi some of the poorest states. That being said, you can insult Arkansas for being poor and so forth but we're among some of the best states for greek life.

People are judged by many circumstances not purely on wealth, but generally influenced by wealth. Where they are from, who they know, their manners and ettiquette, their character, their dress, and their actions go into a bid.

I think that the issue a lot of people have with that concept boils down to this: that if you don't have a trust fund or a family name, you're not going to get anywhere in the community.

I mean, what's the point of wasting money going to college (rather than a business school) if you're going to end up being president of the bank anyway?

Being from a small town, I do understand where you're coming from - if you say your last name (or in your case, Greek affiliation) is this or that, it immediately opens doors. You either find that nice and comforting and traditional, or you find it stifling and confining and kind of sickening.

I mean, I certainly didn't join my sorority to get ahead in my career - especially considering (at least when I pledged) the majority of the alumnae are teachers. I would rather stab my eyes out with a flaming stick than be a teacher. If someone HAD joined my chapter because she wanted to "network" among the teachers in the state, well, we'd have kind of looked at her funny and thought she was pretty shallow. People here tend to join a Greek group because they like the other members, not because it will help them "get ahead" in life.

If the main point of joining this fraternity or that is to further your social life and career, are you really close friends, or is it more like in Heathers "our job is being popular"? I'm not being rude, I'm honestly asking. I know guys and girls are different in the way they interact socially, but the whole thing is just 180 degrees from what I experienced.

No, it's more like, "this is the best fraternity/sorority and this is where you're gonna pledge...because it's the best". It's like people here say, "you'll end up where you belong". For those rushing who are from old line families they will end up at the top houses because that's who they have the most in common with and then networking is just kind of an extension of that. It's hard to explain.

For those who aren't in old-line families who happen to come upon an excellent fraternity, it could certainly create the connections to become an old-line family. In southern states that are small (Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, and to a lesser extent Georgia and Louisiana) you're known by your family known. They don't need to ask how much your dad makes because they already know it.

This quote should be the welcome message when some GCers log on.

More than that, that poster actually boasted about the social class divide in an area. :rolleyes: Someone has taken his Future Capitalists of America membership way too seriously and has failed to use his brain.

It can't just be any type of trust fund and family name, though. "Class" and "status" have never just been about objective criteria. If it was, there wouldn't have needed to be a such thing as the black bourgeoisie. Blacks from educated and wealthy backgrounds still weren't seen as good enough by whites from the same education and background.

Just something else to think about that makes these "Southern" rants very offensive and discriminatory in outcome, if not intent.

Other than that: Using Greekdom as an additional social network is cool because that's one of its many purposes and uses. How that plays out will vary, of course.

Yeah, except I've never met a wealthy African-American. You forget...the South is still poor. When there is wealth it's still in the hands of the whites. Which means we still co-mingle with the same. I think it's been said on here before that if an African-American were to have the same interests come from an old-line family and meet the standards applied to everyone else, we wouldn't hesitate at giving him a bid. This is not affirmative action. We don't give out bids to less qualified to meet some sort of race quota. Goddamn. However, since we only have one or two black guys come through rush every year, it's fairly unlikely to meet a quota if we were to have one.

Don't play the race card every time you get a chance, thanks. It gets old, especially when someone as poorly informed as you does it.

You seem overly bitter. Is it our fault that we're better of? No, and I take pride in my family's wealth, especially because my father worked so hard to put us where we are. I plan on working just as hard to make sure we maintain or exceed our current situation. I also plan on using every connection I have (through school, fraternity, or any means) to make that happen. For that reason, the reputation and prestige of the fraternity mean a lot to me, as does the exclusivity. Does that make me an asshole? Probably in your eyes, but I really don't care, so long as my children have more opportunities than I did, just like my father made sure I was able to do many of the things he couldn't when he was my age.

Golly and you are getting the fact now?:rolleyes:

Read some of the above posts!;)

Karl Marx wasn't the first or the last person to talk about capitalism. ;) Bless your heart.

I know.

Adam Smith did it fairly eloquently. Though it is always interesting to read the early socialists like Fourier, but the flaws are inherent.

Capitalism is a little bit too high of thinking for you, so let's stay on the topic at hand.

I guess I am supposedly bitter because your class standing and family background differs from mine? Certainly no one who comes from money or education would be critical of caplitalism. ;)

Is it, really?

I feel like I'm petting puppies at the SPCA and you're saying Please think I'm cute and adopt meeee.

Excellent argument! You're truly a genius in logic!

Spend less time pondering the flaws in capitalism and more time pondering the flaws in your own families work ethic.

What y'all don't get is how you come off sounding. Bows and Toes, I'm sure if your dad read your last post, he'd cringe at much of what you say. You are young, and you don't understand nuance.

When you talk about wealth and exclusivity, it sounds ridiculous to me because you have earned nothing - your father has. It is great that you respect him, I'm sure he appreciates it. But, I'm also sure he would be disappointed if he knew that he had created a monster - a snob.

I was raised to appreciate where I was, what I had, and where I came from, but to never look down on others because it is a short fall with a few mis-steps. I hope I have instilled the same values in my children. I'll tell you that the first time I hear any ticky-tacky, classless garbage coming out of any of their mouths, will be the last!

You truly protest too much. Spend less time making assumptions of others' standing and always needing to position yourself against others.

You might even find that you (better known as: your family) aren't as well off as you always thought you are.

Did you finally affiliate with the Kappa Sigma chapter at Arkansas? By your own admission, you weren't affiliated with them last year; even saying that you refused to affiliate with them. So who are you voting on for bids?


///In before the lock.////

Maybe not. Bowsandtoes got it from somewhere.

But he might even be playing a character so take all of this with a grain of salt.