On disliking the book
 

I shan't comment on how realistic/viable a case of infringement is, admittedly personally I think it's unlikely but that is a layman's view! :)

What I do want to say... is that there is a very important need to protect trademarks and intellectual property etc like in the NPHC Converse case where shoes (sneakers?) were sold marked with more than a passing resemblance to NPHC orgs founding years/colors, deliberately and without any permission.

I think that is very very different from what is the case here. I believe it is important to act to protect properties but in this case I think resources could be better focused than on this questionable area? I personally FEEL, that to instigate a lawsuit in this situation would be symptomatic of the reputation the United States has (whether the reputation is poppycock or not!) for being sue happy over everything. :(

In reference to your last paragraph, I agree, but think because it is so open to interpretation that suggests long drawn out - read expensive - lawsuits where the money could be better spent elsewhere.

I don't know how the fact the sources were attributed affects the whole issue if at all.

i would love to hear their answer...even if you just pm me!

big companies do screw up. my friend is a patent attorney and deals with multimillion dollar coporations who use things they aren't supposed to without paying the proper people. for them, it is almost easier to see if they get caught. since they are so big, payment after a law suit is a drop in the bucket. if they don't get caught, then they don't have to pay anyone. do i think this is very ethical? absolutely not, but it is a reality. and while we would all like to think that every big business is out there doing the right thing all of the time....they aren't. it is all about money.


i would love to hear why you think sueing for someone quoting out of a book that they have no permission to use is a useless lawsuit. and while i am not 100% sure that kd didn't give permission, it is more than likely that she didn't.

I will certainly let you know if I find out anything!

I think the thing that upsets me the most about her quoting the KD new member manual (the Norman Shield) at length is that volunteers gave hundreds of hours to put together our new member program and manual, and she's using their work to make money.

There are very few employees of our respective groups. The people who work at HQ, travelling consultants, and any attorneys or accountants retained are about it. The very substantial amount of work that goes into making GLOs work is done by VOLUNTEERS.
/personal rant about taking the work of volunteers and profitting from it...

Time for a rethink on media policy?
 

\disclaimer: The following post are personal thoughts and opinions on what is touched on in this thread. /disclaimer No flames please! :p

I'd like to clarify what I mean more, on my earlier post.

I think there are precious few books about mainstream greek life. Actually, I know there are.
Let's see there's Baird's which we can ignore as its a (albeit useful) directory and it isn't as if it tells someone who's interested in going greek what to expect (or say someone who's just interested in fraternity life but it isn't so easy for them to experience directly). That just isn't the sort of book it is.

So we have Inspiration for Greeks which is good, there's Secret Sisters & Out on Fraternity Row which deal with the experience of gay/bisexual members of sororities and fraternities respectively (I understand for secret sisters a memo went out by at least one NPC group not to co-operate).
There's the Divine Nine book by Lawrence Ross which was an excellent move or In Search of Sisterhood or Black Greek 101. In fact, there seem to be many books about the NPHC groups or surrounding aspects such as step shows (e.g. Soulstepping) etc. Unlike NPC/NIC?

There's out of print stuff like From here to Fraternity so we can ignore that. And teen fiction for girls on sororities maybe.

As far as comments go which say it (GLOs) can't be explained, I agree any book can only give broad brushstrokes within a finite number of pages but that goes almost without saying.

My point is there are precious few books where people can find out about greek life if they're interested - whether that be because they're off to a college with fraternities or sororities once they graduate their high school or whether they're simply interested in 'the whole fraternity thing' (!!!) without some dark motive to search out negativity! My point of there being precious few books is that THIS IS NOT HELPED BY POLICIES AND MEMOS THAT FORBID ANY CO-OPERATION!
This means - apart from the very few examples above - (and now Pledged) that those interested have to seek out what information **IS** available. That leaves information which can be reported on whether the orgs like it or not: i.e. news. Since, there's a legitimate reason for reporting news ("in the public interest") the media can do so; and what's more newsworthy? Scandal/Hazing etc sells.

I'm just suggesting here that NPC groups are cutting their nose off to spite their face. People WANT to hear personal experiences and by outlawing talking about your sorority to, say someone writing a book you leave those people only able to look to other resources such as news stories etc. Thrilling exposés are probably more saleable than philanthropies! And people want to hear a balanced honest personal view sometimes. This means the good with the bad. That doesn't indicate some dark lets make an exposé 'cause hey we want to destroy greek life element. It just means that for a balanced and honest appraisal of all the positives you have to admit sometimes there are petty arguments etc like life in general, and other things.

Having a policy that forbids such co-operation only leaves available either nothing (excuse the hell outta me but PR is important!!!) or leaves some sanitised 'acceptable' monitored release that's been through a legal dept, been through everyone in marketing and their dog, and is probably all 'la la la and then we had a group hug and the sun set' dull as ditchwater. It just must look as if "hey what's so bad that you mustn't talk about it?" (and I know rituals etc must remain secret, I'm not talking about that)
Then, there's not only doing everything to warn against assisting and trying to block dissemination of any info/experiences but if by chance something does get published against all odds subsequently trying to find something to sue the hell out of them over it!!!

p.s. I don't have some dislike for KD or any other org or think that said org doesn't have a right to protect themself as a whole. I just think greekdom could do more to market itself which would leave less people thinking "fraternities=secret societies=hazing=The Skulls=more hazing" type trash because they don't get to hear anything different.

Every single NPC org has the same sort of policy. And there is a great amount of reasoning behind it.

Honestly, the only response I care to give at this time is that between the cultural differences and not being a member of these groups, you just don't understand.

Thats really unfair Kddani.

Decadence's reasoning, while maybe a trifle convoluted ,is pretty sound.

If you were engaged in a character debate and the only people that are talking are the ones that don't like you, you are not going to look to good to people that don't know you.

As far as not being able to understand . . because well . . he just isn't Greek and from England . . it's not true.

Greek Leter organizations are, socialogically speaking, primary groups with a social mission. Anyone thats been in a primary group will understand the bonds forged through a common goal and a group based identity. Someone with a military or a sports team background will get it even better.

There are some things unique to Greek life as there are some things unique to all primary groups, but they are more application than definition.

For example: All primary groups have to recruit new members or die. Sororities have Formal Rush.

Re: On disliking the book
 

Two quick questions for you.

1. Are you a U.S. citizen and/or do you live in the states?

2. Are you greek?


If you have answered no to the previous questions, please refrain from commenting on the things you don't know about.

It's all about the mad Engrish...

Re: Re: On disliking the book
 

Be nice Damasa . . pretend Decadence is your little brother.

And well . . we can't bash the English . . after all we let Canadians participate in discussions on here.

They killed the Baldwins (before the last American-Canadian War)and inflicted us with Brian Adams and the skater chick. OH and they have those beady eyes and flapping heads.

Re: Re: Re: On disliking the book
 

Oh I am being nice James. I just don't like when people play off a stereotype. In any event, copyright laws are established for this sort of thing and if KD wanted to sue to protect that then they have every right to. No matter if some duder over in England thinks they shouldn't because it would display how Americans are, "sue happy."

As for asking about being greek, well I guess I was getting at the fact that said duder would maybe feel differently if he was greek. He might understand how certain ritual materials or member manuals can be considered pretty sacred....

I agree with NPC's non-compliance with the media. Why? The media portrays us time and time again in a negative light (and fairly so--- because they are broadcasting negative news about hazing, alcohol, etc.)

Sensationalism sells. Would it have been more interesting if Clinton and Lewinsky opened a library today? I don't think so.

NPC should take advantage of the 1000s of volunteers within its ranks to put out literature about Greek Life and the recuitment process, personal experiences, etc., in the form of privately published and publicly marketed literature. Expanding the NPC web site with testimonials and stories, as well as putting togther multi-layered brochures and collateral for distribution in high schools, young women's clubs and colleges would help make an impact and increase interest.

Pledged is out there, folks. It's going to make money. It's not going to destroy us.

/End My $.02

It's just a BOOK. Either read it or don't. Just ignore the surrounding publicity, and try not to create any more of it yourself.

Re copyright laws -- using brief quotes in a book review or in a journalistic/commentary piece is practically the definition of fair use. Point me to the page if I missed one, but I didn't notice any quotes from sorority publications that were longer than a paragraph, and most were only a sentence or two. That shouldn't cause the publisher any legal headaches.

It is a fact that this kind of global silence is very unusual for prominent organizations with thousands of members, be they corporations, universities, charitable foundations, churches, etc. Yes, rules that only certain high officers can speak to the press are very common in such organizations...but it is not common for those high officers to categorically refuse to grant interviews, the way sorority officers shut out Ms. Robbins. When officers DO refuse to speak, that decision, rightly or wrongly, often carries an aura of guilt. (Think about episodes of 20/20 where the story concludes: "Officers of Acme Tobacco refused to comment" or "Mr. Smith never returned our phone calls.")

I was trying to come up with a good comparison, and college admissions offices have a lot in common with GLOs when it comes to their relationship with the press, I think. Their selection procedures are confidential; they are acutely sensitive to the fact that negative press hurts recruitment; isolated scandals lead to a lot of bad press that hurts everyone; there's a great deal of public interest and controversy surrounding their operation; only the dean or chair is allowed to give interviews; etc. But unless reporters seek information about individual candidates, they will usually get an interview with someone authorized to speak and receive a lot of information about the requested topic. If Princeton admissions answered press inquiries with a curt "Membership selection is private," or worse, silence, they'd catch a lot of flak.

Needless to say, NPC organizations are private and they can speak or not speak as they wish. But it's inevitable that if you don't speak, people will wonder what you're hiding and pay more attention to detractors who try to speak for you. I think it's worth discussing the possibility that the policy of silence actually makes the problem of negative press worse.

Some qualitative researchers attempt to "blend in" with their subjects while others are upfront and tell their subjects that they are researchers. Depending on the research question, there may be an issue of ethics there.

I personally think this book simply is what it is...a qualitative study of some sorority women (a combination of in depth case studies and a whole lot of interviews). People who understand methodology know that qualitative studies are not necessarily meant to be generalizable to the general population.

So, methodological limitations aside, this author's work has some "truth" to it, but it is not enough to base opinions of Greek organizations about.

@ChaosDST

Would this be considered an ethnography? Wouldn't the author be obligated to reveal her intentions in such a case?

This would be attaching a loose definition to "ethnography" (Greekdom would be the "human culture" to be studied) and a "case study" is probably a better description.

There could possibly be ethical issues here. But, I don't think the author revealed the true identities of the subjects. So, the anonymity remains. I don't conduct qualitative research often, but there are instances where the researcher does not reveal his/her identity.

Again, the "repurcussions" of concealing identity can depend on the research question. I wonder if this author went through an institutional review board or ethics training, of sorts, to get the 'o.k' for conducting this study. Does anyone know?

She didn't go before a board or anything. I am sure it would be mentioned.

Even though the book was in the "education" section of borders it isn't an academic study nor is it acaemically rigorous. However, it doesn't really have to be either.

Her book presents an overview of the greek system, and it follows 4 girls loosely through a year. She supplements/confirms the girls' experience with either interviews or articles.

She also uses the girls experiences, interviews and articles to back up her own conclusions and value judgements.

A number of the articles posted on Greekchat are also used to in her book.

In fact the book is alot like a giant greekchat conversation. Its all there. Hopefully she used GC as a primary resource to "guide" her research. It would have saved her an enormous amount of time.

What is kind of amusing is that she is less hard on most aspects of the greek system, and the people involved, than many of the girls that are flaming the book on this thread.

Using your postings as a comparison . . you are more anti-greek by far than she comes across in her book. . . at least 3/4 pof the way through lol.

I agree with dec that by a COMPLETE media blackout, NPC does cut off its nose to spite its face. That's what happened with Sorority Life. NPC didn't think that MTV would even bother w/ the show if they couldn't get an NPC group....they did, and now NPC has had to do lots of back pedaling.

That being said, it would be great if there was something along the lines of "In Search of Sisterhood" for women pursuing NPC membership. There was a very positive article in "Seventeen" quite a few years ago (we've discussed it on here) that I am sure the sorority chapter had to sign off on before it was published.

But I don't blame the NPC groups for being gun shy at this point, because everything to do with a sorority gets twisted out of proportion. There was an email about what clothes to wear for rush that was circulating on the net to the amusement of various feminist sites. It was just what any large chapter would do for rush and the girls got ripped to shreds. I'm sure that the same women follow a dress code at the companies where they work.

Thanks, James.

So, she's just presenting her findings and letting people take them as they will. Any generalizations beyond her sample that are being made, are being made by the readings and not the authors. Well, at least 3/4 of the way through (:))

LOL...I think my posts are a good comparison. I can be very anti-Greek, at times. I should write a book about it and piss people off/makes lots of $$$$$$.

:)

I agree. Those of us who have read "In Search of Sisterhood" by Soror Paula Giddings know that it not only chronicles Delta Sigma Theta, but American history (which includes black American history...beyond slavery, of course). A book "devoted" to an NPC sorority should conceptualize sorority memberships within a women's movement and general history framework, as well.

I apologize, I actually meant "you" in general as in the girls that are so militantly against the book rather than "you" specifically. :)

Some of the girls that are the most vocal on this thread about the book, have also been the most negative towards greek behaviors/members they don't approve of lol.

I agree. The context is definitely not emphasized enough in this book. Especially college life in general.

Or some obvious things. Greeks drink more. Therefore the Greek system encourages drinking.

In reality college people (and people in general) drink socially, however, Greek Life will often offer more social occassions than your regular independant has.

Darn! Does this mean I can't write an inflammatory book and piss people off/make $$$$$$$?

:(;)

Sure you can lol .. .

Actualy, I am more upset that I didn't . . . this girl is like 25 and authored three books, good for her.

Whereas the rest of us have written the equivalent of a book or two on GC without getting paid.

Makes you wonder.

There is a book, Bound By a Mighty Vow, which I believe is coming out soon that deals with the early history of women's fraternities. Amazon.com description

Not a book, but a website:
History of the Women's movement via Kappa Kappa Gamma timeline
(click on "Launch Women's Timeline")
--------------------------------
From my reading, she attempted to go in as herself, undisguised, but was "shut down" so in order to really "infiltrate" these sororities, she had to disguise herself--so much to where the four women she profiled would not recognize her as she is normally. We don't know how she approached these girls, don't know what story she gave them or how she befriended them. She could have said anything to get them to agree, which to me is a questionable practice, bait and switch if you will. But, I'm not familiar with qualitative research, so maybe this is okay.

I think I've mentioned it before, but my biggest problems with her book lie in her sources--some of which are out-of-date and questionable (including websites) and her attempts to generalize Sororities through her four profiles and (hundreds? thousands? the number is unclear) of interviews. I would be slightly more comfortable if she stated that this is what life is like in those two sororities for these for girls at that one campus instead of making it sound like the findings in her book is what happens at all sororities on all campuses all over the country and Canada.

I'm just P.O.'d I didn't think of it first! :p

Perhaps they are the ones who are bitter because they didn't get in a sorority--?

KappaKey-utie have you read it yet?
 

Like the Aesop's fable: 'Sour Grapes' ?

p.s. I know the actual fable wasn't entitled sour grapes. :)

33girl's comments on "In Search of Sisterhood" by Paula Giddings, make a lot of sense.

I think the discussion here has a lot of parallels in some ways with discussions that occured on the Greek Letter Forums section of GreekChat, in regard to the Lawrence Ross book about the Divine Nine.
I was going to quote some of his (the author's) points here (which span some of the many areas also discussed in the various threads on this book) but it would make for a long post; so I'll give links instead in case anyone wishes to read.

• Link 1 - post is four down from top

• Link 2 - 2nd post down

• Link 3 - seven posts from bottom

• Link 4 - six posts from top

• Link 5 - final post on page

Thank you,

- decadence. :)

Flipped through this book today...I had to dig through the education section to find it. heh.

Interesting browse through...

Someone asked about a link to the video clip of an interview with the author, on MSN - in another thread.
I expect the duplicate thread'll be deleted as including this first thread there are three (3!!) concurrent threads in the forum so I'll post the link here; since someone asked.
Note: Ideally have a fast connection, unlike I had! :p

Link.

ETA: Far more interesting IMHO is this audio interview: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4798042/ :)
"...audio transcript of phone call in which MSNBC.com's Will Femia chats with Alexandra Robbins about sorority life."

For those wondering if her interviews are made up, I can unfortunately attest to one being actual and true. The information, although it could also be found on the internet, was presented in more detail and with more truth than can be found on the internet. However, she did still manage to get the name of out school wrong, so maybe she still lacks in her researching abilities :p

I read it and it infuriated me. They told secrets of some GLO and that just pissed me off. The girls that they picked were girls that seemed like they didn't want to be in sororities anyway.

OK, I think we REALY need to STOP talking about secrets being in the book. I personally wasn't going to read it and had no interest in reading it until I came on here and read that there were secerts.(Confirmed by the members in the organization-nice) Now I am still NOT going to read it on priciple, but others may. Seriously, stop talking about it. This is what she wanted...PUBLICITY. I guess it worked.

There is a little more of an intellgent discussion here:

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...threadid=50220

An outside opinion
 

I went to Borders Bookstore and read through the book. It is in the young adult section. It did seem to have a slightly negative tone to it. Overall, I felt that it was not very objective. It seemed as if she was looking for all the negative points that can occur in NPC sorority life and focused on them.

I don't remember if it was said in this forum or another one, but the problems she listed as being wrong with NPC greek life can be found in *any* organization. I think that is what is bugging people. She makes it seem as if those problems: peer pressure, eating disorders, ill feelings towards your fellow chapter members, etc., are exclusively found in NPC sororities and not in any other group.

Also, I have to agree with what has been said before in that I think her arguments about NPC sorority life could be more credible if she compared the actions of NPC sorority members to a female dorm, women's glee club or the general female population of a college/university, i.e., non-greek women. THEN, if there was a major difference in the amount of peer pressure experienced between greeks and non-greeks, that would lend importance to her conclusions about NPC sorority life. You know, maybe she should have done some comparative studies and collected data (numbers). A simple poll would have been nice to see.

The book is written like a diary and I think it should be read in that context.

I also thought it was wrong to list confidential sorority information. True or not, it was just bad taste.

You think the author wrote a book that's critical of sororities? Check out this woman who reviewed her:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=pulps&s=zimmerman052704

"But how cynical of me! Wouldn't it be more fun just to talk about the peer-pressured clitoral piercings? Or the rousing games of "Circle the Fat"--which make you a better person because you can, like, know which of your body parts need improvement? Or how about the eternal favorite--the "drink an entire bottle of vodka, get slipped a mickey, and get date-raped" game? (And then sleep with the date-rapist again a few months later because, you know, you're feeling really bad about not having a date for Formal.) OK, so that last one isn't a game, but it does seem to happen with enough regularity--and often ambivalence--that it sure could be. And through it all, your sisters are there for you: to point out your "problem zones," to gossip about you behind your back, to force you to break up with your non-Greek boyfriend and your old girlfriends, to tell you what to wear, to make you strip in front of frat boys, to force-feed you grain alcohol, and to make you pay tons of cash for the privilege of it all. Screw those snotty lesbian Seven Sisters schools--sorority life is where sisterhood is at. "

Sacha Zimmerman , former assistant managing editor at TNR, is an associate editor at Reader's Digest.

Now the New Republic is a pretty intelligent, liberal, publication. Reviews like this and other stories that are extremely stupid do come up, but RARELY. If you are planning to write any emails, put serious thought into what you would say.

-Rudey

hmmm that was interesting... the only part I liked about that review was:

the rest sounded like the ranting of some random feminist who doesn't know any better since she so blantly stated she didn't like sororities in college and likes them less now... but umm that's just my opinion :)

I don't see how these two sentences can be in the same review, but that's just me

I recently just finished the book...well almost, the end really made me laugh when she wrote the check list of how to re-vamp sorority life....

I have several issues with the book, I won't go into them because many people have posted the same ones. My only comment is this: If you take away the greek letters, this book is just a book about the lives of four COLLEGE women. The alcohol, the drinking games, the parties, the sex, the screwed up relationships with guys, and even hazing (sports teams haze as well as lots of other types of clubs and organizations). The described experiences are common. The author just slapped greek letters on it to make it sell more.

And honestly, lots of facts were completely wrong and I find it hard to believe that some college age women would share such horrifying and personal stories of rape and abuse to anyone in the general public, especially if they knew they were talking to a journalist.

ITA. I think it's the same kind of deal that drove Robbins to write the book in the first place: a highly-dismissive intellectual type who is only looking to validate her opinions.