I found an interesting article on the Ordinates. http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010...l-ordinariate/

Instead of continuing to derail the other thread I figured I would bump this. The comment on female deacons really confused me.

I'd be interested to hear more about the female deacons as well. Just to give some background, clerical roles are traditionally only open to men across all the Orthodox groups.

However, there was a time that women could be ordained to the Minor & Holy Orders up to and including the role of Deacon. Back in the day, their responsibilities largely centered on ministering to women. Deacons can, of course, dispense pre-sanctified communion, among other things.

I have been very interested in the possibility of bringing female deacons back to the Russian Orthodox Church. I would, personally, be interested in assuming this role.

Not surprising since there are biblical references to female deacons.

Sorry about the further derailing of the other thread. We also have female deacons in one of the 2 churches that we attend/are members of (Korean Presbyterian pastor) but actually non-denominational evangelical.

My husband (a seminary student) says that per the Bible deacons should be men (Judges 6; 1 Timothy 5:17, 1 Timothy 3:1-7) but that there are deaconesses as the tradition varies from denomination to denomination. I try not to ask him for clarification too often but he does know where to find it. :)

In the bible there are also references to Deaconesses (sp?). I was just surprised that the Orthodox, who hold that it is not possible to ordain women, would have deaconesses.

That's one reading of the passages you cite -- that deacons should be men -- but not the only reading of them. (The Timothy ones at least; I don't know what Judges has to do with it, given that (a) the office of diakonos is a New Testament concept, not a Hebrew one, and (b) there were female judges.) I know many seminary students, graduates and professors who would say it is not an accurate reading.

One could continue reading in 1 Timothy 3 to verse 11, which speaks of "the women" and seems to be talking about what kind of women should be deacons. (The other meaning would be that Paul is referring to deacon's wives, but that doesn't really fit contextually.) Then there's the case of Romans 16:1, where Paul specifically refers to Phoebe as a deacon. True, the word diakonos, from which we get the English "deacon" literally means "servant" or "one who waits on others," so Paul could simply be calling her a servant of the church. But what, then, do we make of the fact that Paul used the masculine diakonos rather than the feminine diakona? It would seem that if he simply meant "servant" he would have used the later. His use of the masculine in reference to a women could suggest that he did indeed mean it as a title or designation, not simply as a description. Literally, he says "I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, she is deacon (ousan diakonon) of the assembly (church/ekklesia) at Cenchrea."

I think one has to be careful about reading more into 1 Timothy than Paul intended. If indeed it is setting forth absolute requirements, then it would seem that deacons must not only be men, but must be married ("the husband of one wife") and fathers ("manage his children and his household well.") I think Paul's point was not that only men can be deacons (otherwise, why verse 11 about "the women"?), but rather one should be able to manage one's own affairs before one tries to manage the church's affairs, and that bigamists or polygamists need not apply.

It seems odd to say the least that a female diaconate would have existed under the early Church Fathers (which it did) if Paul had so clearly forbidden it. How these female deacons' roles compared to (or differed from) their male counterparts can certainly be debated, but it's pretty clear that Paul assumed women would be deacons.

I second this (studying Classical Greek currently). Paul could also have potentially used another word for "servant" o doulos (yes, it is a masculine/neuter noun, but it can be used with the feminine form of "autos" for emphasis). That's pretty much my contribution, as small as it is. :)

Roman Catholic Anglican Ordinariate
 

It's happening! January 1, 2012

http://www.walsingham-church.org/site/Ordinariate.html

Interesting Q & A about what it all means:

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/

Went to the Akathist of St. Katherine today at the local Antiochian Orthodox mission in town. It was quite interesting.

MysticCat,

You are 100% right about Judges, and I should have known better than to have cited any part of the Bible before checking it first. Thanks for reminding me that I need to check absolutely everything when I edit my husband's papers!:)

Exactly why I love it when my wife edits what I've written. She catches things I never do. :D

It's heeeeeerrrrreeee! The Anglican Ordinariate!

http://www.usordinariate.org/

My home parish is the principal church - Deo gratias. I'm very excited, especially for the Episcopal and Anglican parishes who are joining us.

I read an article about this earlier this morning and immediately thought of you/this thread! Of course you beat me to the punch!

The timing is interesting because now the liturgy of the Ordinate will not be in step with that the rest of the country is using. The new Order of the Mass seems to me to be more different from the old style then the Rite II of the BCP, which is more or less reproduced in the BDW. Also a question for the Catholics on here. Any of you familiar with Jesuit spirituality?

Well, technically we were "out of step" when we were simply an Anglican Use parish.:rolleyes: With the new Order, we had to make two small changes in our usual service - the one I recall off the top of my head is "holy church" instead of just "church". We've been "And with thy spirit"ing all along.

We don't use the big ol' BDW - we have our order of mass in paperback missals in the pews (including the prayers in Latin we use at the 8:15 mass).

I forgot that Anglican Use has both Rite I and Rite II. My priest was on a retreat right after the changeover and she felt really comfortable because the liturgy was almost identical to the 1928 Prayer Book she grew up with.

Yes, it's very close to '28 BCP.

Parishes and groups poised to join us:

Holy Cross - Honolulu, Hawaii Fr. Chip Wheeler
Sacred Heart of Jesus - Mount Airy, Maryland Fr. Dennis Hewitt
Oratory of St. Wilfrid - Seffner, Florida Archbishop Edward Steele
Holy Nativity - Payson, Arizona Fr. Lowell Andrews
All Saints - Green Valley, Arizona Bishop Wellborn Hudson

I wonder. Would Anglicans who hold the title of Bishop continue to hold that if they entire the Roman Church?

No, bishops will become priests. (I don't know how else to phrase it - obviously, bishops ARE priests, but Anglican bishops will lose their status as bishops and become simple priests.)

eta - Here's the press conference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Epv1rzcRBZE

But unless you love press conferences, this is a better treatment: http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot....e-is-born.html

Our local news really blew their coverage. The reporter said OLOW was founded as an Anglican parish that then went Roman Catholic (not true) and in trying to explain about how married Anglican priests would be accepted said that they would not be able to perform all the duties of a Roman Catholic priest, which is also not true. They just won't be able to become bishops.

Oro pro Societas! Are you familiar with <http://ignatianspirituality.com> ?

I just learned of that site recently actually. Decided to google Ignatian Spirituality after I posted here and found that site. Very interesting. The more and more I read the more it appeals to me.

I have always found the Jesuit approach to be the most compelling combination of demanding intellectual rigor and a spirituality approaching mysticism. As the product of a Jesuit Prep School, a Jesuit University, a devotee of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius I am happily astounded by their combination of Faith, speculation, and the general and continuing application of their guidance first given years ago to me as a 'new boy' at school. The question was posed, 'when God gave you a brain do you suppose He had in mind that you might do something with it?'

A.M.D.G.

So fellow GC liturgy nerds *looks at MC* I have a dilemma.I decided to treat myself to buying a prayerbook with money from my taxes. I'm torn between the Book of Common Prayer from the Church of Ireland, the St. Augustine Prayer Book (anglo-catholic devotional manual) or the St. Ambrose Prayer Book (see above but for Western Rite Orthodox). What say you?

I'm sure I don't know what you mean.

I have a St. Augustine's that I picked up at a used bookstore for something like $5. I'm betting if you look around you can find a used copy at a good price.

If it were me, I'd probably go for the Irish Prayer Book -- of the three, it's a canonically-approved liturgy rather than a devotional manual, and that's what I'd probably want in my collection. But if you'd rather have a devotional manual . . . .

I don't know anything about the St. Ambrose, but if you've got an anglo-catholic bent (which I think I remember you do), I think you'd like the St. Autgustine's.

I vote St. Augustine, but then my patron saint is St. Monica.

Greek Chat introduced me to a Gamma Phi in Connecticut who is a cradle Episcopalian - she asked me for Anglican Ordinariate info, and I think she's gonna end up swimming the Tiber. Thanks, GC!

The St. Ambrose version piqued my interest- lately I have been appreciating all things theologically Orthodox. :)

It seems part of what the St. Ambrose Prayer Book has is a couple of approved WR Divine Liturgies.

Fr. Jeffrey Steenson's homily - (he was at my church 2 weeks ago!)

http://www.usordinariate.org/installationhomily.html

SWTXBelle, I'm truly happy that you are happy to be where you are now and I give thanks for that for you.

How is the Ordinariate different from the Eastern Rite Churches?

We are Roman Catholic - fully Roman Catholic. The Ordinariate ( to which individuals as well as parishes have to be admitted - there is an application process) allow parishes to function together kind of like a diocese, but obviously not bound by geography. The Eastern Rite Catholics ( I assume you are not including the schismatical churches) are in union with the pope but maintain their own rites, have their own patriarchs, etc. I've heard it explained that they are essentially the same as before the great schisms. What they are NOT is Latin - unlike the parishes of the Ordinariate. The churches of the Ordinariate are using the Anglican rite which is actually closer to the rites of the church at the time of Henry VIII than the current RC rites, or so I've been told. Well, other than the fact that it is in English, of course. That is my admittedly limited understanding of the differences.

eta - Found a good overview of Roman/Western vs. Eastern - not specifically the Anglican Ordinariate, though - our priest faces the altar, for example, and our architecture and art are far more traditional and ornate than that in this chart.
http://www.stmarysbc.com/faith.html

I'm actually quite familiar with the difference between East and West. I am a frequent attendee at the local Orthodox mission and actually debated moving from Canterbury to Constantinople for a period of time. And I have seen some very high church Episcopal services where the priest faces the altar. Depending on which rite one uses, both are historically correct. (The Mozarabic rite IIRC has always have the priest face the people).

Fun fact - when OLOW was just starting out in our small building (which is now our parish hall) we had an altar on wheels; the then-bishop would roll it out when he came so he was facing the congregation, but our priest would roll it back and face it when he was officiating.

LOL.

In these parts, priest-facing-the-altar (ad orientem) is frequently seen even in fairly low Episcopal churches. It's just how the churches were built and "how it's always been done."

I have yet to see a priest stand at the north end of the altar, which is the true tradition lol. What I would love to see is a true Sarum liturgy, but only chance to see that would be WR Orthodox.

I am
 

Sorry for the delay in my answer, but I haven't been in GC for some time.

I am a Jesuit. Is there anything in specific that you would like to know?

BTW, Jesuit spirituality is Ignatian spirituality shaped by the Jesuit's Constitution. Any person who experiments the spiritual exercises can live the ignatian spirituality. Jesuit spirituality is a subset of it, lived by the Jesuits, who follow the Constitution of the Society of Jesus.

Jesuits are made malleable by Ignatius spiritual exercises (Ignatian Spirituality) and then shaped by Ignatius constitutions to the Society (Jesuit Spirituality).

If you want, you can also PM me.

Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam.

[QUOTE=Little Dragon;2126143]Sorry for the delay in my answer, but I haven't been in GC for some time.

I am a Jesuit. Is there anything in specific that you would like to know?

BTW, Jesuit spirituality is Ignatian spirituality shaped by the Jesuit's Constitution. Any person who experiments the spiritual exercises can live the ignatian spirituality. Jesuit spirituality is a subset of it, lived by the Jesuits, who follow the Constitution of the Society of Jesus.

Jesuits are made malleable by Ignatius spiritual exercises (Ignatian Spirituality) and then shaped by Ignatius constitutions to the Society (Jesuit Spirituality).

If you want, you can also PM me.
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

============================================

A.M.D.G.

A Jesuit! An active member of the Society!
Thank you for identifying yourself and joining in. From time to time a question regarding our relationship with God arises on the GC board and I often feel out of my depth when attempting to offer a useful comment.
If you are amenable I will refer these comments/questions to you and seek the guidance of one who has far better credentials than this writer.
Oro pro Societas et pro tu!

Peter

Sure!
 

Sure, I'll try to help however I can. Although I'm pretty sure your guidance has been on target so far, just let me know.

In Christ,
Fernando, sj

So I ended up ordering the BCP from Ireland today. Also bought a set of Anglican Prayer beads and a book called "The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything." I think I'm done with church related purchases for at least the next 46 days.