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This is one of the worst and most circular threads ever. |
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So it sounds like your issue is not with FGCU, but with IFC, an entity that does not want you at this time. |
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Oh and we have threads about Title IX. |
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What rule has FGCU created that challenges your single-sex status? |
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The fight is with FGCU, not the IFC. A group of students, does not have the right to ban a lawful group of students to form an organization. They can prevent that group from being members of their own organization (IFC can vote no to IFC recognition; but they cannot vote to have them not form at all). However, the school itself, by equal protection laws is still bound to let every organization apply to become a registered student organization. |
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Signed, Dr. (no quotations) Phil |
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You still haven't answered any questions asked of you. |
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redundancy/ What KSigAdvisor needs to understand is that this isn't about him. The issue of GLO recognition by colleges and universities is a longstanding one, as indicated by the posts on previous pages (before people got tired). Students and alum need to understand the how tos, whys, and hows before they get angry with institutions and feel as though insitutions are imposing upon their "legal rights." There are institutions that are violating rules and regulations (and/or "legal rights"), but that is not to be assumed just because you are told NO or whatever. /redundancy |
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You needed to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization. You were allowed (by FGCU) to petition for membership in IFC. IFC didn't want you right now. You'll have to wait. |
Thank you Rambler1869 for your posts. If I may, I have a few questions.
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Frankly, Kappa Sigma should have a number of alumni members that are attorneys. So if no rules were broken, then they should have been able to guide y'all through the legal paperwork rather effortlessly. Quote:
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You can believe I made up the comment if you want. It's clear that you think talking in circles and throwing a "XXX v. YYY" in your lengthy responses shows that you know what you're talking about. If you feel that your rights have been violated, stop bitching to random usernames and take it up in court. If your argument is as strong as you think it is, you should be on FGCU's campus in no time. |
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You do not need to be a member of a Greek council to be a Greek organization; this is a very common misconception. The point, was being allowed to become a Registered Student Organization; which can be outside of IFC. As you do not need to be part of the Greek Council, to be a Greek organization; IFC recognition would be the ideal route, however it isnt needed to be a fraternity on a public university. As it stands, these men were denied the right to even apply as an RSO. |
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Look, I don't see how they are discriminating agianst you. You aren't recognized, because they require IFC membership, or at least that is what I think is the issue. However, for them to be discriminating against you, they would have to be specifically punishing you for being a member of Kappa Sigma, which they are not doing. Oh news flash, there are quite a few state organizations that run like this. No law is violated, because as I said, they are not punishing you. Hell if anything, you want them to hold you to a different standard then anybody else. That is discriminatory against them.
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Rambler1869: There are a lot of institutions that will not allow organizations to charter a chapter unless they will automatically or eventually be under a Greek council. This allows all GLOs to be under an "umbrella" so that this "umbrella" (in combination with the local/regional or district/national entities of the GLOs) can keep it all in check. Then the Greek Life offices and the institutions have a context through which they can impose their rules and regulations. People used to say that the rules and regulations of their GLOs supercede those of the institutions, but it actually works the other way around much of the time because the institutions are "allowing" them to be on that campus. |
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I won't find any support, yet schools around the country practice it. All of a sudden, a group of undergrads feels they're entitled to something, and it's dead wrong. Like TSteven said, if your rights were violated, KSig's lawyers likely would have stepped in. They haven't. |
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Kappa Sigma does have a number of alumni who are attorney's and a number of them are currently working with the FGCU legal department (outside of formal litigation) to attempt to resolve the matter peacefully; as it is our belief that neither side wants to go that route. However, please do not take that as we wont; we just believe it should be a last resort scenario. We would have much prefered the entire issue been handled peacefully; which is why its only been until fairly recently that many of you became aware of the situation at all; as we were trying to work with the school rather than against it. The official denial (oral, not written) was that they knew it was for a fraternity, which needed IFC recognition. Please note, the individual did not say or write that the room was for Kappa Sigma. As crazy as that sounds; its unfortunately how it went down. |
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So would it be fair to say that progress is being made regarding recognition by FGCU as a RSO and with the IFC as an official chapter - or colony as the case may be? And as a follow up, what was the specific (official) reason for the denial with respect to the attempt to reserve a meeting space? |
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If the wheels are turning and you all are working toward getting this resolved, why is this being debated on a message board? Why not let this thing run its course? |
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Quite a few of us have experience with institutions that perceivably have annoying and sucky Greek Life rules and regulations. Annoying and sucky do not equal illegal. However, that's why all of our organizations have attorneys. Good luck to the KSig attorneys who will determine whether it's worth it and able to be ironed out. However, honestly, there are plenty of ways that institutions can informally make GLOs' existences a living hell after they've essentially forced themselves on campus. |
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I would love to say its all getting "worked out"... but unfortunately it has taken a lot longer and more pressure from Kappa Sigma to get this far, as the school had basically tried to move on and ignore the situation. I'm hopeful that eventually these men will not only be able to use school facilities; but also be recgonized be the IFC (that part may just take the longest; but is really a seperate issue). |
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Is there a reason you won't answer these simple questions?
I'm assuming from the way you don't answer that you don't want to say that you don't have any legal training? Am I wrong in making that assumption? Quote:
I'm fully aware that expressive associational rights may be involved. I'm also aware that many of us on a message board may have a very incomplete understanding of what has actually happened at FGCU, and that a better understanding may change our thinking (including possibly my "similarly situated" argument). But here's my bottom line: if this were to go to court, I'd be very comfortable betting that the court if it came to the issue would hold what was held by the court in what is likely the most on-point case legally (I understand there are factual distinctions): The Chapter must next show a deprivation of the right of its members to freely associate. In this vein, the University argues that its withdrawal of official recognition did not in anyway harm the right of Chapter members to associate with each other. Iota Xi Chapter of Sigma Chi Fraternity v. Patterson, 538 F. Supp. 2d 915, 923-924 (E.D. Va. 2008), aff'd 566 F.3d 138 (2009).n.11. Indeed, the Chapter still recruits members, holds regular meetings, and hosts parties. Quote:
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MysticCat - as I am unaware of all the details of the case; does it state whether the members of Sigma Chi at GMU able to use any school facilities and/or post any flyers on school boards? Or just say it was allowed to still meet?
There may or may not be other cases to be quoted... really all outside my area of expertise. I can only talk about what I know, as I have done so far. |
Either way, I think that it is important to note... that those men who originally recognized, they were given the chance to be on campus (later taken away for various reasons) - then they fought to come back opn campus. (This is how I understand it)
The case of FGCU, the men have not been allowed to use school facilities at all |
First off, thanks MysticCat for posting the case information.
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The University is a public institution located in Fairfax County, Virginia, where, until May 8, 2006, the Chapter was an officially recognized student group. n2 Between February 2005 and August 2006, the Chapter and its members were involved in a string of on- and off-campus incidents that culminated in the revocation of the Chapter's official University recognition and the individual discipline of several Chapter members.Iota Xi Chapter of Sigma Chi Fraternity v. Patterson, 566 F.3d 138, 141, 143 (4th Cir. 2009). So it appears they were not allowed to use school facilities in any way.n2 According to the district court, "[o]fficial recognition allows a student group to publish their affiliation with the University, apply for certain university funds, and seek assistance from the University in planning events." Iota Xi Chapter of the Sigma Chi Fraternity v. Patterson, 538 F. Supp. 2d 915, 919 n.2 (E.D. Va. 2008).. . . . As a result of the Panel's decision, the University imposed the following sanctions. First, it revoked the Chapter's University recognition until at least September 1, 2016. n4 Second, the Dean of Students and the Director of Student Activities were instructed "to monitor membership in George Mason University recognized fraternal organizations to insure that the current membership of Sigma Chi fraternity does not reemerge under a different name." J.A. 151.n4. The revocation of University recognition precludes the Chapter from applying for University funding and publicizing itself as an officially recognized organization. Furthermore, the Chapter may not participate in "organizational affairs which would imply university recognition." J.A. 872-C. Loss of recognition also precludes the Chapter from booking space on campus or using campus facilities. Quote:
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As far as I know, no effort was made to seek review of the Sigma Chi case in the Supreme Court. And yes, I think the holding is correct would likely be mirrored in most courts. Leonie Brinkema isn't a lightweight. And apology accepted. |
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