If you are real, you need to get off the bitter bus and be happy with the chapter you are in and quit wishing for things that would never have happened, and blaming it on the Greek system. IF you are real.

However, I doubt that's the case.

In a perfect world, that would happen. (Cue rainbows and unicorns.)

But what you get is a full semester of high-pressure, under-handed dirty rushing, lots of focus on certain girls and none on others. Lots of time spent on "Coke dates," lots of time wasted on non-productive "rushing." Chapters are delayed in getting a portion of their budget, and NMs have less time to bond with the chapter.

There's a reason early recruitment has survived thus far - it's the quickest and most efficient way to place new members.

Is it perfect? No. RFM is working great now, helping the smaller chapters build. Eventually, somebody will come up with something a little better.

I like the UGA model - a sort of formalized second recruitment that takes place in January. This enables chapters to fill spots for girls who resigned, dropped out, transferred or graduated in December (an increasing number of women do that now), and enables girls who were dropped or quit or couldn't rush for some reason in August, or just transferred in, or changed their minds, to join.

You know what I remember about Coke dates back when Arkansas had deferred recruitment? (You had to be a sophomore back then to rush)

Coke dates weren't mentioned in the recruitment brochure, I suppose you had to be "in the know". Some girls had loads of Coke dates all summer. When the rushees came back to campus in the fall, dozens of them discovered for the first time that Coke dates existed because other girls would be excitedly talking about the ones they'd had. This had a huge negative effect on morale...."Why did I even bother to show up?"

Add to that that Arkansas had bed rush anyway and you can see how some women were picturing those beds as already having been filled before they even showed up on campus. They probably were.

AnchorAlum and others, I know y'all are just picturing with me how dirty the rush would get if the SEC crowd went to deferred recruitment. I know that Ole Miss has it but I have no doubt that the beds are already "filled", so to speak, before the first class starts in August.

I'm sure that deferred rush works for other campuses but I guess that's a whole other thread.

Yes, because not ALL the chapters do it, and preferred pnms will decide not to pursue certain houses. BUT - 33girl is absolutely correct. A pnm might not be able to get the top-tier house she thinks she wants, but there are opportunities for other great chapters to offer her a home, thanks to the new release figure formula.

From what everyone says, everyone wants the same "top" girls. If a chapter is stupid enough to spend all their $$ on the same women everyone else is spending it on, that's their own fault. Maybe if this sort of thing had more concrete consequences (i.e. getting to rush and realizing OH CRAP WE NEED $$) sororities would step out of this silly mindset.

Why would NMs have less time to bond with the chapter? Most groups have a 6-8 week mandated national pledgeship, whether it occurs in spring or fall.

Talk about a revealing quote! There's no mention here of retention or member satisfaction - just that this is the easiest way to stick people in holes. Quick fixes rarely work. The NPC gives lip service to "lifetime membership" but if they really meant it, they wouldn't be trying to just pledge people as quickly as possible.

If sororities were able to retain all their members until graduation, there wouldn't be such craziness of getting the best freshmen, upperclassmen being disadvantaged, etc etc etc. You could fill the bathtub and keep it filled without having to continually plug the leaks.

Big chapters have plenty of money to spend. They don't spend it all on recruitment. A good bit of the bill for dirty rushing is footed by individual members and alumnae. You'll never see it in the recruitment budget that's submitted to Panhellenic.

The 6-8 week new member period is just a basic. It takes longer to really get to know people in the chapter, and for the chapter to get to know NMs. That's what we tell NMs all the time, isn't it? With deferred, you've got a semester less to do it in.

You are right...if we could all keep all our members all 4 years. That just doesn't happen. I daresay if you compare retention rates for early and non-deferred recruitments, there wouldn't be that much difference. Retention is indeed something that needs more attention (I lay that in part to the brief NM period).

I used to think deferred recruitment was a great idea and that my school (Alabama) should change to it. But then I saw it in action, in a couple of smaller schools with a just-as-competitive recruitments. It was a nightmare.

I would never say that EVERY school should have deferred recruitment. It clearly works for many schools. And it clearly doesn't work for many others. Isn't that why NPC offers several different methods of recruiting?

I wouldn't say that either. I'm just really glad my alma mater has it.

So in other words, all these chapters have to do is ask the alums for money to do whatever and they get it? You were the one who brought up the "budget" but it seems that having a "budget" is a moot point.

You've got a lifetime to get to know your sisters. Or, you should have a lifetime if you don't get burned out and self-terminate. Don't forget that hopefully some of the women have come into the chapter ALREADY being friends with some of the members. That's what I'm advocating. We heard constantly that women pledge more often because of friendship with one member than any other reason.

I doubt that very much. There was a poster on here who said, in effect, that at her (pre-freshman rush) school, people routinely disaffiliated by their junior and definitely senior year, as Greek life was looked on as something you did as an underclassman. To the point that only 25% of her pledge class was left by the time she graduated. I also think it's important to look on WHY people disaffiliate. I just ran over my years as an active briefly in my head, and of the members we "lost," 3 left college completely (one returned later and reactivated) and 4 were terminated for behavior reasons. We didn't have women quitting because they "just weren't feeling it anymore." The other sororities on campus were similar.

I know with a large rush the thought of changing can be daunting, but it's that kind of thinking that perpetuates pre-rush choosing of pledge classes and under the table alum donations to get around budget rules.

Anecdote =/= data.

we would need much more to know why people disaffiliate and if it correlates with the type of recruitment they have.

That's exactly what I'm saying. And from what I've seen on GC, it DOES tend to correlate.

Up until sometime around the 1980s, recruitment was very different at UT. The way relatives have explained it to me is that PNMs received individual invitations to sorority parties, but only from the sororities who were interested in them. A PNM could start out with invites from all chapters or just one or two, depending on how "desirable" the PNM was. They continued to attend the parties of the groups they were interested in joining who invited them back. Most PNMs never even saw the inside of the infamous "Big Six" chapters.

Yes, it was elitist, but in some ways I think it was better because it never gave false hope to PNMs who had absolutely no chance of receiving a bid from a particular chapter. You started out with all the chapters that thought you were a possible fit rather than wasting your time hoping that "lofty" chapter wanted you or you could make an impression in a 20 minute party that will keep them from cutting you and wondering what you did wrong.

With RFM, if you're in a strong and desirable chapter on a competitive campus, you have to have a very good idea about who you are going to invite back for the second round before the first round even begins. There's no other way to eliminate over half of the PNMs after one 20 minute party. People are always going to complain about the recruitment process when it doesn't go their way, no matter what method you use.

This is DEFINITELY the case on my non-deferred campus. Not uncommon at all. These girls sometimes still wear letters/have their org in their activites on facebook/still have it on their resume for potential employers! I have a lot of problems with people quitting an organization that CHOSE THEM just out of boredom or lack of social schedule. Financial reasons I can understand, that situation is just sad.

Having been born and bred in Texas, I think that no amount of desperate maneuvers (maternal or otherwise) would have snagged an invitation to certain houses. Either the PNM had "it" or she didn't.

I'm not sure if I'm posing this as a statement, or as more of a question, but...

Maybe the problems with retention (specifically with those who get "bored" and drop later in their college career) have something to do with the size of the chapter.

I was in a very small chapter. While I was active, we never had more than 19 girls. We were all VERY busy. Our chapter website (which hasn't been updated in forever) still has the roster and positions of the active sisters in 2006. Looking over the list, I started to remember how much we really had to do. Girls were holding 1-5 positions a piece. One sister held, over the course of one year: Vice President, Treasurer, Publicity, Alternate Panhellenic Delegate, and Pageant Chair.

But we were all very close. We struggled, but we all worked together to survive. Our chapter actually received many awards at Convention (including the highest one a chapter can receive) and it was the most rewarding experience.

With a chapter of 100-200 sisters (maybe more), I can see how it would be easy to get lost in the mix. Girls can go through 4 years of school and never hold a major position. I don't know this from experience, but in some cases, I would think it might be difficult to stand up, speak out, and actually be heard amongst that many young women. Being one in a sea of faces doesn't cut it for some people, and sometimes they don't realize that until they're drowning in the middle of it.

Or maybe I'm completely off base..

I'd like to see real data on this too, because the campus I know best (Penn) has deferred recruitment and very poor upperclass retention. Clearly, anecdote won't get us anywhere on this question.
________
1Madonna4U

Exactly. I can think about my campus and I know that we had some bigger issues with retention than other chapters at the time. But as quota increased we were less and less able to put more effort into NM retention because there were more NMs in one case than there were actives who were qualified to be Big Sisters. It was freaky! We kept from spiraling down that membership hole and AFAIK we're doing wonderfully there now. Adding a chapter helped keep quota down and made life easier for all of us.

But that was one chapter during one 4 year window. I obviously have no idea how the other chapters managed and I have no way to say that changing recruitment would have made a difference for the better.

But I do think a lot of people here have had ideas that would improve recruitment no matter when it is held. (As well as lessening the pressure on the numbers, but that is all HQs.)

ETA: With the whole seniors not returning thing: We had quite a few nursing and engineering students and they were slammed by senior year if they weren't already. They didn't leave but they didn't have a lot of time for social/philanthropy events.

My chapter had ~ 150 members and we didn't have a problem with seniors dropping out. We did have a problem with seniors that PAID but didn't show up for much. And I can honestly say I was one of them. I didn't go back for spirit week (the work week before school & rush starts) because I had a "real" job in an office and couldn't afford to leave a week early. Then I was gone winter quarter because I was doing an internship at a TV station 2 hours from school. When I got back for spring quarter (my final quarter) I had so many life decisions to make that I really didn't think I had time for sorority stuff. Do I regret it? Yes. Would it have mattered if the chapter was smaller? not really. I still saw my little & grandlittle on a regular basis and I still hung out with my group of sister-friends. I just didn't go to (many)chapter meetings or socials.

I think that some people who join larger chapters actually WANT to be "just a member." You've got to think about how much these positions entail in larger chapters - rush chair, for instance. You're in charge of motivating and directing 200 girls and a HUGE budget - it really is almost like an adult job. I think that some people who join smaller chapters want to be "just a member" too, but they can only do that to a certain extent.

But doesn't Penn have a lot of problems with underground sororities and fraternities? That's an element in the mix that many schools don't have. I'm sure if I saw my friend in an unrecognized group paying half of what I pay and having the same (if not a better) experience, that might make me rethink my membership as well.

^ Oh, I don't doubt that there are people in both large and small chapters who would like to be "just a number".. trust me, I know.

I'm simply asking if one of the reasons that girls drop is because maybe it doesn't seem "worth it" to them... to pay all that money and to seemingly not have a huge influence on the chapter. Or maybe everyone does.. I don't know. This is why I ask.

The underground sorority at Penn hazes openly, though. On the other hand, I suspect that some students at Penn want to be hazed for what they think is a typical Greek experience.

And whether or not deferred recruitment has an influence on retention rates, I don't know. I'm trying to weigh all of the factors (which could be impossible)

I'm actually curious to see what will happen on my campus this upcoming semester. Panhellenic decided to change to a partially structured type of recruitment. I don't have all of the details yet, but I'm glad they're adding a more formal kind of recruitment. However, I think it would be more beneficial for them if they moved it to the spring. Retention rates for all three chapters dropped last year when they did away with deferred recruitment.

I guess we'll see if the type of recruitment changes anything.. although, I'm not seeing how it would get better.

Arkansas went from sophomore rush to 2nd semester freshman rush to pre-freshman rush. There was just too much abuse of the system: dirty rush, you name it. I doubt they'll ever go back for many reasons plus they get more money if they have members for 4 years.

I joined as a junior and wasn't burned out at all unlike some of the others who were seniors in my sorority and others but...I don't think that retention and timing of rush have that much to do with each other. The really strong groups at the big universities I work with don't have much attrition anyway.

I understand that they might not but that is the whole point. They get another chance.


I didn't say anything about a chapter having something that another cannot offer. PNM's have their own reasons for choosing the chapters they want to go back to but the fact that most of them choose the same suggests something. And if Jenny gets bumped because Suzie changed their mind, then great for Suzie, she deserves to be there more than Jenny and she wouldn't have with RFM


Right. As I said you do increase your chances WITH chapter A.

And I'm sorry but being in one chapter over another is not something that anyone should take lightly in my opinion. It's an important decision.


I'm not bitter. I adore my chapter. It was the chapter I wanted all along so I'm not sure what you're talking about. I just have a different opinion than you.

1. How many chances should they get? Just one more? Two more? What if they come back one more time after that? The cuts have to happen sometime. How many people get that second chance? Short of adding another night to recruitment it is done when it's done. For every person it might help, it hurts someone else's chances of getting any bid.
2. It's mutual selection. It doesn't matter how much Suzie PNM wants Chapter A or for what reason she wants them, they have to want her too. If she chooses to drop after being cut, it's her choice, and probably her loss. (And no, Suzie doesn't deserve it more than Jenny. Why won't you give Jenny another chance too?)
3. Your posts tend to be troll-ish. But let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not getting it. You seem to prefer that RFM doesn't exist. Fine. But it's not going away. And it benefits the majority over the highly unlikely individual who just might have made a better impression the next time. Yes, it might have made your recruitment different, and changed your 'fate' so to speak, but it doesn't work retroactively so don't apply it that way. Think about the greek system as a whole.

Good of the many over the good of the few (or the one.)

Suzie deserves it more because she got the extra chance (Jenny made the initial cut) and after meeting them both again they decided they wanted Suzie more.

I'm not a troll just because I don't agree with most of the posts on this board. Besides I can discuss and offer my opinion about RFM even if it is here to stay.

So why not give Jenny one more chance? (Meanwhile Rachel also got invited back, had no chance and in the process cut Sorority B, she ends up bid-less because of it. )

You seem like a troll because you never appear to actually respond to the post, just insist on your point "but what about the one person"

And you haven't actually given your opinion on RFM, just pouted for the one person who might just maybe omg might have gotten another chance.

Jenny already did get the second chance. She was already invited back to the second round and then blew it because when making cuts for third round they decided they wanted Suzie more (who they would have cut after first round with RFM).

How did Rachel not have a chance if she was invited back? She got another round to meet the girls-that was her chance.

I am responding to your posts with what I think. I'm sorry if you don't like the way I speak or write or whatever, but I am saying what I think. Again, that does not make me a troll.

I don't have a strict opinion on RFMs. I do have an opinion in that I feel bad for the girl that could have made it into that sorority if she got another chance.

So you should get two chances but not three? Sounds like you'd just rather have a second round robin/non-cutting night.

Rachel was never going to get in to sorority A, she just barely made the cut to get invited back to the extra party sorority A added just to give Suzie a second chance. In the process she cut B. Because she went to A where she had no chance, she didn't get a bid at all.

The thing is, there are no Suzies or Rachels. They're all "what-ifs." There's no one for you to feel bad for. No PNM knows for sure why she's not invited back, and they're aware that some chapters are more competitive than others. Ideally they know that some chapters will cut more heavily than others. There are very few PNMs who this will hurt, and those are people who refuse to consider another chapter after losing out on Sorority A. That means it's the PNM's choice, for better or for worse, not to continue with recruitment or accept a bid.

If you want to "feel bad" for someone who gets cut earlier, well fine. But more PNMs would end up bidless (snap bids not withstanding) and chapters would struggle without the new system. So join us on the campus/system level discussion if you actually want to talk about it.

/and none of this means you're not a troll either. 33girl linked several good reasons.

Actually by inviting Rachel back, she has a chance to change the sorority's mind.

It seems to me that the general opinion is that the top groups are going to have the same pledge class with or without RFM. This is not the case because of the girls I am talking about who change minds. These are the girls I feel bad for. This is the PNM's it will hurt and no it is not just the girls that would only accept a bid to sorority A. That may be their number 1 preference though.

If you want to think I'm a troll for past behavior that I've already recanted, then fine. You don't have to talk to me you know, but for the record, I've been nothing but polite and respectful to you.

No, Rachel is standing in for a PNM who, for whatever reason - grades, money, looks, annoying-ness - would never make it into that sorority. You have to invite back a whole party of girls, not just one.


They will have the same number of girls. They will likely have the same pledge class. They might have one PNM change their mind. You're playing in hypotheticals and talking about them like they are absolutes. I'm talking averages and probabilities.

How is a PNM who gets a bid to another chapter hurt? Many don't get their first choice. And most are happy with their bid. So.... who loses again?


No, I mostly think you're focused on Little Suzie because she was you. And that somehow RFM would have changed your fate. (Or someone close to you) and you seem to be incapable of looking at the Greek system, even on your own campus. Feel bad for Suzie all you like. To Greeks as a whole, her ability to change A's mind doesn't matter.

Also :rolleyes: at the bolded.

If they weren't using RFM they would get to invite back a certain number of girls. That number minus the girls they would cut if they did use RFM are the ones who get the second chance, not girls that would be cut after first round without RFM.

They will still have the same number of girls in the pledge class. I have never denied that. They likely will not have the EXACT SAME pledge class. How similar (whether it is identical or far different) probably depends on the school a lot and other factors. This whole example is hypothetical is it not? The only absolute I am saying is that there will definitinely be situations where a girl normally cut after first round due to RFM would end up with a bid to that sorority.

As for the PNM getting a bid to another sorority, she's not getting her first choice which she might have gotten.

I definitely wasn't Susie seeing that I got my first choice. I do know people that I feel bad for but I'm not thinking of anyone in particular at the moment. How exactly am I incapable of looking at the Greek system on my or any campus? Please be specific, I'd like to know. And please don't speak for the entire Greek community by saying that her changing their mind doesn't matter. You and a lot of this board agree but I am part of the Greek community and I think it matters. Besides it's ironic that everyone on this board is all for the sorority being able to change the mind of the PNM and win her over but not the other way around. I know how recruitment works but that's not mutual.

And what is wrong with what I said that you bolded? You are dead set in thinking that I am a troll yet you continue to give me thought out responses.

So only some people get should second chances? Why shouldn't those people who get cut after the first round w/o RFM get second chances? Why are the people who get cut with RFM more deserving than the ones who get cut without it?

Sure, but they're rare. There would be more situations where a girl wouldn't get a bid at all. Which is preferable?
Happens to a lot of people. If most are happy, why is that considered something 'bad'?

Because you are focused on the rare individual instead of the community as a whole. The PNMs don't know why they're cut, so they don't know if they had a "chance" or not. This maximizes every PNM's options, leads to more PNMs getting bids and helps every chapter reach quota. It's not a perfect system, but what is?

It's not about changing the sorority's mind because odds are the sorority doesn't hate her, they just like X number of people better, and out of that X only Y will come to pref and then 1/2Y (or 1/3Y or whatever) will get bids. If Suzie wants to be in that number she's the same chance as everyone else (she can't control what chapters pre-make bid lists etc.). Being the applicant to something, whether a sorority, a job, or a school means that you're not the one in control of the system. If a job invites the top 3 candidates for interview, someone's always going to be number 4.

It's childish.

Yeah, we get it, someone somewhere could have gotten into her dream sorority IF she'd just gotten that extra chance to impress the group in Round 2. But not likely. If you get cut at Round 1, you are in the bottom basement of their list. Maybe you'd be able to change their mind at the borderline of Round 2/3 but earlier than that, the probabilities are very low.

The converse to letting these popular groups string along large groups of girls they are completely uninterested in is that to keep going back to "Top Chapter", they have to let go one of the chapters that may be actually willing to give them a bid. So when "Top Chapter" finally does release them, as is inevitable, they have fewer chapters to chose from in the pool that is actually interested in calling these women sisters.

You have to look at these things from both sides. I'll take a Suzie with a broken heart over being cut from "Top Chapter" over more women ending up bidless anyday.

Especially since as recruitment goes on the "we really like you" vibe gets stronger. It sucks even more to be led on, so to speak.

I'm trying to remember, we had 5 chapters and 2 rounds of 5 parties, 1 round of 3 and pref'd 2. I can't remember whether after RFM the stronger chapters had to cut after the first round or the second. But I wouldn't think anyone would have gotten let go after the first round unless they walked in an yelled how much she hated XYZ or had a 1.5 GPA. But I could be wrong.

Jenny and Suzie and Rachel all did have another chance. They (presumably) had recommendations from an alumna based on resumes and pictures they gave to the alum. That was the sororities' first look.

Presuming, of course, that they got their recs!