In order to argue for a double standard, you cannot implicate "the Black community" or "Black culture as a whole", because the people who protested Imus are a VERY small segment of the Black population as well (And were mostly only among the Black elite, whom you argued don't represent the whole). If every last one of them wanted to protest every single offensive hip hop artist on every single label and every single radio station playing them spread out all over the country, there would be nowhere to start. Furthermore even if they did, they would represent a "sliver" of the 20-30% of hip hop consumers who are Black.

Well, for one, when speaking of a double standard, there is no point in bringing up white people's participation in furthering rap music. The only reason for that would be to either bring up a double standard in the white community or to argue about whether rap music should be boycotted, etc, which isn't what we're discussing. If you want to bring up white double standards, I'd be happy to participate, but to my knowledge thats not the subject matter.

I agree, the people who stood outside MSNBC and protested were a small segment. However, I anticipate that given the personalities involved and the attention paid by the black community, they would have had a fairly large base to work with if they hadn't gotten their way so quickly. I don't think just a small segment of the black community was concerned. Walking around campus, going out to eat, getting gas, everyone was talking about it (by everyone, I mean a lot of black people, but whites too). Now, of course my experience is limited to my area and whatnot, but when combined with the extensive media coverage, what else am I to think? I know you want me to accept your view of this as valid, but everything I've read and witnessed firsthand contradicts what you'd prefer I accept.

Once again, I don't think the lack of feasibility is indicative of a lack of a double standard. I think there isn't enough support across the black community to foster such broad action against rap music. I'd compare this to something like the left's quest for gun control. Sure, they write articles, some may protest on occasion, but overall, the potential backlash outweighs most people's desire for the change. This isn't to say some aren't willing to do it, just as some are willing to create change in rap music at all costs. However, once again, I do see a disparity between the way the mainstream entity (in this case, the black community) reacts to different situations.

I wasn't arguing White double standards, only that the Black community has a limited ability to manipulate an industry for which they are not the main consumers, and the protestors of Imus are a smaller number still.

Again, there is a distinction between who was concerned and who acted. Of course you will accept whatever you wish, I'm just offering my experience as someone who interacts with different Black communities regularly and is actually involved in some of the efforts you are speaking about.

I'm not saying the lack of feasibility indicates the non-existence of a double standard, I'm saying that without two feasible options, there is no evidence of the existence of a double standard. You can't make a valid judgement of people's unwillingness to do something without a valid 'something' for them to do.

Great point- many, many Black people have commented on hip-hop's dark, violent, woman-hating elements, and many more have supported the protests with their time, voices and money, but it hasn't changed anything. We are not the main consumers of hip-hop culture. Our approval or the lack thereof will have no appreciable impact on the record labels bottom lines- as a matter of fact, the more loudly the voices complaining about the music (Dolores Tucker comes immediately to mind) the more popular it becomes with the public at large (similar to what happened in rock music when the explicit stickers went on the records- those artists were suddenly perceived as heroes by the public- just watch VH1).

Laylo,

I still disagree that the feasibility argument makes the two non-comparable. I think it may have some impact on the argument, but I don't see that it would render it moot.

A new spin on the debate....Russell Simmons vs Obama
 

Rap Mogul Takes On Obama
Russell Simmons Said the Presidential Candidate Should Not Criticize 'Poets' for Slurs

By JAKE TAPPER and JERRY TULLY

April 16, 2007 — Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., found himself criticized Monday by one of rap and hip-hop's leading producers, Def Jam Records co-founder Russell Simmons, who challenged the presidential candidate to stop criticizing rappers' lyrics and start working to improve the urban-American world that inspires them.

"My response to Sen. Obama is that you have to talk about the poverty and ignorance that creates such a climate that the poets can talk like that," Simmons told ABC News. "And all the politicians owe them an education and an opportunity for a better life — and maybe they'll say something better."

Obama, the first presidential candidate to call for shock jock Don Imus to be fired for his racist comments about the Rutgers University women's basketball team, has said it's troublesome to condemn Imus' "nappy-headed hos" slur without addressing similar language used by rap and hip-hop musicians.

At a fundraising dinner for the South Carolina Legislative Black Caucus in Columbia, S.C., Friday, Obama said, "We've got to admit to ourselves, that it was not the first time that we heard the word 'ho.' Turn on the radio station. There are a whole lot of songs that use the same language … We've been permitting it in our homes, and in our schools and on iPods."

Read the rest of the article here

Russell Simmons needs to sit down somewhere.

russy doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him.

I was watching Oprah yesterday and he kept insisting on calling these rappers artists and poets, and I am sorry but not all of them are. And the ubiquity of this derogatory language in a rap song is not explained away by the fact that they are poets holding up a mirror that reflects their experience. If they are poets 1) they should have a greater command of language so that they do not use the same language over and over again; 2)they should be conscious of the way that they are using language (and I just don't see that kind of consciousness reflected in much of this music); 3) there should be more depth to the experience that they mirror; Our communities are not one-dimensional filled with loose moraled women and men, drugs, and bling. There is much more going on there, and a poet should be able to capture these things.

I agree that we need to address the conditions that some of these artists rap about, but at the same time there are a lot of other artists that don't use that kind of language and still manage to communicate a message and a truth about their experience.

My white opinion is that nobody should tell them what to say or how to say it. The problem obviously comes not with what they say, but how society chooses to glorify it.

I fully agree- and that is why none of us in the black community can stop them.

We have no right to tell them what to say/express.

We are not the primary consumers of their work, so our lack of monetary support has no effect on them whatsoever (as it is I doubt many people who actually buy hip-hop in the "community" are paying more than 5 bucks at the bootleg man ANYWAY, we are currently not supporting them with our money as it is).

Historically, when a black leader (ha ha) has offered any censure, their sales have gone up.

The only protests that I've seen that I thought were in any way significant were those like the Spelman women's refusal to have Nelly come speak on their campus. But even that did not affect his overall popularity in the slightes, it just sent a clear message to the few people who were payign attention (I only read about it on gc).

So I guess I just don't understand what the fabled "black community" is supposed to do next.

I don't think it matters as to "who" purchases the most of this music because those dollars in no way compare to the amount of money that we spend on the consumer goods of their record label's parent company. Many of the labels that specializes in the artist with degrading lyrics are owned by diversified companies that also own other business ventures such as clothing lines, alcohol, restaurants, etc.

Since we are the largest group of consumer goods (clothing, cars, etc.), we can hit their sponsors in the pocketbook. The benefactors extend well beyond the record label, but goes into a host of other areas such as clothing, vehicles, etc. If anything else, we KNOW that there is power in the dollar.

The sales of Sony's playstation well exceed the record sales of a rap artist on one of their record labels. I guarentee that if we boycotted buying their products (playstation) because they chose to produce these types of artist on their recod labels, then something would happen.

Things like that can work (Pepsi did drop Ludacris) and then they can backfire(Body Count by Ice-T) making the artists into pop culture/free speech icons. The companies will find another less public way to make money through the artist that just got all that nice free publicity.

I dunno, maybe I am just extremely cynical about the ability of any protests to stop America's corporate tastemakers.

Which may just be that the corporations stop pressuring those people to produce certain kind of music. There is another thread where we discuss this stagnation in mainstream hip-hop, which is the product of the corporations that market and produce the music.
I think folks should be able to say whatever they want to say, but they should be prepared to accept the consequences of that language, whatever those consequences might be. However, I certainly don't have to listen to it, support it, or endorse it, and please, don't try and sell it to me as poetry--like Russell Simmons is trying to.

Well, I don't think the black community should "do" anything. My comments on a potential double standard aside, I personally am not that concerned with the music itself.

However, regardless of consumerism, I think that significant segment of black culture does glorify some of the "statuses" in rap music. Thats where the problem lies (white people do it to, but I think its more pervasive in the black community), the ideal situation is if people could enjoy rap, but not let its message have such a profound impact on popular culture.

I'm not really that concerned with the degradation of women/violence aspect of rap (I mean, I don't like it, but I haven't personally seen any effects of it). What I do see though, is simply irresponsible living. Its not just rap, its popular culture at large, but the rap "culture", if you will, makes a substantial contribution to it.