It used to be common to photograph a deceased in their casket surrounded by flowers. I see nothing wrong with it at all.

Separation of church and state, what??

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...ain/index.html

"The Catholic Church has lost its shepherd," U.S. President George Bush said at the White House, with his wife, Laura, standing alongside him. "The world has lost a champion of human freedom, and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home.

"We will always remember the humble, wise and fearless priest who became one of history's great moral leaders."

Bush ordered the U.S. flags at all federal buildings and facilities to be flown at half-staff until sunset on the day of the pope's interment.


Why is our federal government mourning his death in the same way we honor our leaders. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Or know what past occasions of world religious/political leaders' deaths resulted in US flags being flown half-staff?
When President Gnassingbe Eyadema of Togo died in February did we fly our flag at half staff?
When Arafat died did we fly our flag at half staff?
When Mother Theresa died did we fly our flag at half staff?

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/id274.htm
No love lost for John Paul
Tommi Avicolli Mecca

Sunday, April 3, 2005

The media is holding a love feast for Pope John Paul II.

Without even a pretense at objective reporting, the stories in the
mainstream media paint a picture of this pope as "a man of the people."
Some mention his more controversial actions in passing, such as his
crushing of the Liberation Theology movement in Latin America and his
lifelong promotion of anti-gay bigotry, as if they were insignificant
moments in a sterling life of sacrifice and compassion.

John Paul II was not a man of the people. Unless you remove queers from the
definition of people. John Paul II considered queers as immoral and
"innately sinful." Under his watch, his church continued instilling young
people with homophobia and young queers with self hatred. How well I
remember that homophobia and self hatred from my 12 years in Catholic school.

John Paul II was staunchly anti-gay. In his 1986 Vatican letter to bishops,
"The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons" the pope condemned Catholics who
would give even the hint of support to organizations that supported queer
sex. The letter also implied that homosexuality was a mental illness, and
that queers were responsible for the AIDS epidemic. That's why he later did
a photo op right here in San Francisco not with a gay man with AIDS but
with a four-year-old who contracted the disease through a blood
transfusion. In 1992, the Vatican made no bones about telling bishops they
had to oppose gay rights legislation, without any exceptions. He never
recanted those positions.

In the final months of his life, he spoke out frequently against gay
marriage and its alleged threat to the heterosexual institution of the
family. In his newly published Memory and Identity, he described queer
coupledom in language befitting a fundamentalist preacher: "It is
legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a
new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to
pit human rights against the family and against man." Gay marriage may be
part of a desire to assimilate to heterosexual standards, but hardly an
"ideology of evil!"

John Paul II came to the papal throne 26 years ago from a tumultuous time
and an equally tumultuous place. His country was over run by the Nazis, and
later by the Russians. About the time he ascended the papal throne, the
Solidarity movement ignited a new battle against Communist domination.
Coming from that country, John Paul II should've brought a lot of
understanding about human oppression to his position as the world's most
powerful religious leader. He talked a good show about human rights, that's
for sure.

But those human rights didn't extend to everyone.

He could've done what his own church's spiritual leader had done: embraced
the outcast with compassion.

It is said that Jesus refused to judge the prostitute. According to the
church's own teachings, he preached a gospel of love and forgiveness. John
Paul II didn't. He spent his life condemning homos and other sexual
outlaws, as well as denying women the right to abortion and Catholics any
sexual -- expression outside of procreative sex.

When all is said and done, he was just another in a long line of religious
leaders in a church that is responsible for some of the history's most
well-known human rights violations, including the Children's Crusade that
saw the slaughter or sale into slavery and prostitution of thousands of
young people; the Inquisition which drove Jews and other "heretics" out of
Spain; the witch burnings, which took the lives of countless numbers of
women and homos who were used as kindling for the fires, hence the term
"faggot;" and the slaughter of so many indigenous peoples here in the new
world, an act of genocide done in the name of Holy Mother Church. Then
there was Pius XII's inaction against the Nazis.

The history of Catholicism is not a pretty tale.

John Paul II could've made a difference. He could've brought his church
into the 21st century. He could've brought some light into its long dark
history. Instead, as far as queers are concerned, it was business as usual.

Don't ask me to celebrate that shameful legacy.

Tommi Avicolli Mecca is a southern Italian ex-Roman Catholic turned atheist
who believes that the Vatican's vast collection of art and treasures could
feed and house every starving person in the world. Email Tommi Avicolli
Mecca at meccacarta@aol.com.

Much of the world is grieving. Open your eyes and make your point at a time when people are willing to listen.

Put your agenda in your pocket for a few days.

To many, the Pope is much like a family member. You wouldn't attack somebody's grandfather when he had just passed away.

Methodists and several branches of Lutherans do this too.

I have a lot of Protestant friends. :p

Is Archbishop Desmond Tutu in the running?

Or is he an Archbishop of the CoE?

Wait, is he dead? I heard him speak when I was younger, it was amazing. He was the only widely known religious figure that I thought was worth a damn.

Just a thought, he's old, and from Africa, is that who you were thinking of?

I believe that Desmond Tutu is an Anglican Bishop.

According to his biography he has several children and was ordained to the Priesthood and served many posts in the Anglican Church -- or Church of England as you asked.

eta

I think this is who many believe could be the first black Pope:

"Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria has been mentioned as a candidate to be the first African Pope."

For some reason, I thought he was a CoE officiant, but, I wasn't absolutely sure.

Rereading my post, I come off sounding like I was putting down the pope. I wasn't, I was only trying to emphasize that Archbishop Tutu was one of the best speakers I've ever listened to, and the best religious speaker.

About the late pope, he was a good man, I didn't agree with some of his veiws, but he did a lot of good in some areas.

There's a really cute story about the late pope in my Chicken Soup for the Jewish Soul.

My grandfather was Methodist and he was displayed in an open casket for the viewing and the opening parts of the funeral, and it was closed about five minutes into the funeral.

Same for my grandma, and she was Presbyterian, I think. Same for my uncles and aunt, but I have no clue what they were, although I know it's not Catholic.

Oh yeah - it's not the open casket itself that I'm objecting to, I've been going to viewings since I was 5 and they don't fase me a bit. It's just that a photo of someone dead in their casket kind of gives me the creeps for whatever reason.

IowaStatePhiPsi is right though - in the Victorian era, taking pics was very common and that was sometimes the ONLY photo people ever had of a loved one since photography was quite a bit more expensive then. I guess I would have been a very bad Victorian. :)

Apparently there have been popes from Africa before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_popes

http://www.nbccongress.org/black-cat...ican-popes.asp

So did Hitler (depression economy recovery, anyone?)

You are seriously AWFUL. Can you please back off and just let us grieve him without your snarky little comments every five seconds? I don't care that you disagree with my church, but have a little respect for crying out loud.

I dunno, DeltAlum - I would have been more concerned if IowaStatePhiPsi *didn't* post something like this. It's one of the few constants in life: some people are just not happy unless they are causing an uproar.

Considering how much of the coverage has spilled over into the truly tasteless this is pretty minor IMHO. (But not everyone is allowed to say that, right gang?)

--add

Ditto this!

ISPP, please knock it off. Thanks.