ETA: I know there are a lot of gray areas and it was definitely a very bad situation that could have been avoided one way or another. But I really feel that both the guy and the girl need to understand what happened really probabaly shouldn't have and why. Especially since you say this guy is now going around bragging about the incident. Maybe your friend doesn't think it is a really big deal, I don't know what her personal feelings are, but we really need to educate people to keep them from having the attitude that cashmoney described because it's really only increasing problems. I know a lot of people do have that attitude, both male and female and since so many people already have the opinion that more rape occurs in Fraternity houses, anything we can do to counteract that opinion is worth it.

edited because I didn't feel comfortable with that much personal information out there.

For those that wonder if she would have just had sex with him anyway, assuming she was less drunk. . . . Well, we will never know because that wasn't the situation.

Although she doesn't make a habit of one night stands.

By all accounts the guy was drinking, but not seriously drunk.

To me it seems that he views himself as a bit of a cocksman. She got to the party really wasted and he attached himself to her right away, and hung out with her all-night. Classic strategy. Something i never had the attention span for.

Target of opportunity. Its not exactly noble, but its not exactly uncommon. And if that were the extent of it, oh well.

However, I think as a matter of respect he should have refrained from having sex with a girl that messed up.

Certainly I have desisted with girls much less visibly impaired than that. (somewhat to my regret :p)

I think this is a failure in a social situation and not something that requires legal intervention.

I think its a lesson for her on trust and vulnerability. And should be a lesson for him on respect and manners.

His subsequent bragging is immature, and also misplaced.

If it doesn't speak well of you to brag about having sex with an ugly girl, it certainly doesn't speak well of you to brag about carnal knowledge off a girl thats passed out.

It has about much status as bragging about copping a feel from your mom. Maybe you enjoyed it, but telling anyone is stupid and liable to gross us out.

Since her friend and her fraternity boyfriend brought it up, I think she deserves an apology. Now that its been mentioned it would be even more rude for him to refuse to do it.

ITs been a few days and no apology has happened yet, and her friend as well as her friend's BF have not brought it up.

This isn't nearly my area of 'expertise', and it would definitely vary from state to state, and I'm 100% sure the judicial review is light to non-existent - that said, "instigation" is a slippery slope, and I think you'll find it hard to express instigation in this sort of way. There's the omnipresent specter of "but I was drunk too!" in this - and the requirement that the rules be the same across the board.

Again - I was just playing devil's advocate, as this thread has evoked massive emotion from some people, even while we don't know the specifics of the situation beyond the sparse info James has given us to promote discussion. I get that, it's a hot-button issue, and one I wish people wouldn't have to have experience with, but it's a bit over the top. There are so many different sides to this, it's hard to even know where to start, so I'm just trying to fill in a few of the blanks.


That's fair enough - I'm all for things that help the victim, even if only via some sort of token gesture (sometimes that's all it takes to start the wheels in motion). I guess that it's hard to draw the line between what should involve education or etc, and what should constitute jail time - that's definitely way beyond me to decide.

ETA: (remove pointless paragraph that james just addressed)

FWIW, even though I believe it to be rape in the definition of the terms, I don't feel the guy should be prosecuted or given jail time. I feel education is more proper channel of dealing with him, especially given the attitude and personality James has told us this guy has. Hopefully, if enough of his brothers feel what he did was reprehensible, it would serve to possibly change his actions.

i probably shouldn't even be replying to this, but i think it's wrong for you to say that my post was weak. i obviously wasn't serious. and if you took it seriously, then you're pretty weak. i'm angry about what james posted concerning his response to the whole situation.
i'm done with this thread. not worth it for me to read this crap and get angry. so i'm signing off this thread for good. peace!

shelley j
sigma k

ps - james, in the future, don't ask for my opinion on these types of threads since they obviously are going to be bashed and disrespected.

cya.

I am on the fence about this particular incident as well. It was a bad social situation. His behavior after the incident is despicable (the bragging stuff), but not illegal. A friend of mine had a similar incident in college, except that there were pictures afterward. She drank one glass of jungle juice which just about put her under the table. She asked her best friend (a male in a fraternity who had been her friend for years) who she could trust to take her home because she was feeling bad, getting worse and just wanted to go home. He told her two different guys should be cool so she picked the one she thought was the least harmful. She said she vaguely remembered waking up in a car somewhere in a park and said "Where are we?". He told her the name of the park and she said "I want to go home now, take me home". The next time she woke up, she was in his bed with some her shirt and bra removed. She has no idea exactly what happened, but it was morning. She got her clothes on and came to my room, stunned and crying. This was back in the 80's when we wore our jeans so tight that he probably couldn't have gotten them off of her without her consent so she doesn't think she was raped. She was victimized though. Apparently he took pictures of her topless and showed them around the fraternity until it got to her friend, who promptly kicked his brother's butt. He had to apologize to the fraternity.

While I don't condone cashmoney's attitude that any girl who leaves with a guy is consenting to sex, women need to realize that a lot of men (not all, but a lot) see it this way. We have to keep an eye on our friends, especially if they get that drunk, and take them home ourselves, not abandon them at a party. We cannot change the way that some men think, so we have to protect ourselves by behaving responsibly. I am NOT saying she asked for it or that he was ok to do what he did. But, as women, if we don't want to be victimized, we can't act like victims and we have to be aware of how the "predator" is thinking, even if the predator is wrong in their thinking.

Dee

Has anyone seen the movie "Gossip"? This situation sort of reminds me of it...

dude, you're out of control - which was the whole point of my post. if you were kidding, that's cool, but you seemed pretty heated . . . let's try to keep it calm, cool, rational, etc in here.

I'm not trying to invalidate your opinions, just trying to get a good discussion going.

ISUKappa - that makes sense to me, but I guess I'm skeptical about how effective that can be. I'm so totally on the fence here, b/c it's a shitty situation and it feels like there's very little that can be done. I guess I just don't know (first time for everything i guess).

This was very well written. We do have to protect ourselves and we do need to be aware of what is around us. Same goes for guys - although, I don't know too many v-teasers who get taken advantage of.

Question! What's this Italian law thing?

The idea is that a woman wearing jeans could not be raped because the attacker could not remove her jeans without her cooperation, implying her consent. :rolleyes:

Yep - and this idea was translated into law for a while (I'm pretty sure outside pressures got it removed a bit ago), essentially making Italy a laughing stock with regard to women's rights (and this wasn't 1930, this was more like 1990). Very weak.

Well I think this question brings up a lot of emotions in most people, bc it does seem very similar to something that has happened to at least someone we have known. I am not really sure if I would call this situation rape without knowing all the details.

A friend of mine had this happen to her. She was actually hanging out with some friends for the night and got pretty drunk. She ended up leaving with a guy friend (they knew each other from before) bc she could not obviously drive herself, but he could. She doesn’t remember much past leaving until the next morning realizing that they had had sex. She obviously was blacked out, but the point is she didn’t know how coherent she was. She felt like she could have been coherent enough for him to think it was ok, but she knew she didn’t want that to happen. So she never wanted to say anything, because she felt partly at blame since she was so drunk. Also, I think though that she should go and get tested, bc my friend did end up getting an std which is a constant reminder of the bad experience and makes it harder for her to start a new relationship with someone else.

Bottom line: Having sex with a girl that is black out drunk is NOT ok (legal or illegal) becasue it's not respecful of the girl. My opinion is boys that do it shouldn't feel good about themselves the next day.

I echo Dee's comment. Girls need to watch out for their friends!