James, again, I must reject the notion of assimilation for two reasons:

1. It should not be necessary that a group assimilate just to be treated fairly and equally, and this is true (or my opinion) regarding any country or society, this actually indicates even more that this country practices and relies that much more heavily on white skin privilege to establish what is and isn't acceptable.

2. Re: "If you look aht history of other immigrant groups coming into the states, they are hated for a generation or so and then they assimilate adopting the language, dress, and basic cultural patterns of the parent culture.

African american youth Culture, which seems to be a hodgpodge of stuff, hasn't successfully assimilated in language, dress, or basic patterns."

Black Americans have been "hated" in this country for much longer than a generation. I have to say that once again, too many people over simplify a tremndous social problem in this country as well as others that is specific to people with BLACK skin. This has been shown time and time again, over and throughout history. We ARE not regular immigrants to AMerica and never have been. So, comparing our "group" to other "groups" is not effective as we examine this problem.

How does the hate compare with blacks not from this country?

And do you reject their right to hate you? Do you really think it's going to change?

-Rudey

It's not something you see a lot, but I definitely see it a couple times a week......doesn't really matter, my point was that Taualumna said ppl who wear saris and are still accepted, and I'm saying that the garment itself is more socially acceptable in a business/professional environment than sagging jeans.

The people we are talking about who HATE, do so because the people they hate are not like them and anyone not like them physically, they see as inferior..textbook definition of a racist. So, basicaly, regardless of country or origin, if the person or people are Black, then they hate them as well.

As you said, Rudey, there is a point at which someone goes too far. There is nothing I can do about someone who hates me because they have a problem with my natural physical characteristic such as skin color. It's a sickness, just as there is nothing I can do about a schitzophrantic (sp). As long as the laws of this land no longer condone outright harming me because of my difference in skin color, then I'm fine. God will take care of the stubbornness of those who mistreat others becasue they can't accept their differences, both physically and socially.

As long as there are people who have gone from being a hard core racist to someone who advocates equal rights and humane treatment of all people regardless of color ( I have heard plenty testimonies of this, actually) then, yes, I would say change can happen, but I also know that there will always be someone who refuses to change because their hate has consumed them and because they do, in fact, get a sense of satisfaction and pleasure from their being a beneficiary of white skin privilege.

Here's a question:

How much of this 'privledge' is due to race? And how much is due to social class? (there is a strong co-relation between race and class - on occasion I think they confound eachother)

just saw this....

can someone PM me a quick recap?

And I think blood is blood, thoughts are thoughts, and none of it changes unless it suits the person's own personal interests. Maybe your Christian beliefs give you hope for more...if so, good. For me there will never be a time where all people are equal - at least based on race/religion/creed...never.

-Rudey
--So I would never attempt to change the boundaries but to do better given the boundaries

There is a strong correlation between race and class, but the sorts of things Mackintosh mentions in her article apply to the vast majority of European-born Whites, regardless of class. Such things as, "I can walk into a store and be sure that I am not suspected of being a thief because of my race" are a good example.

Whether or not being part of a certain social class gives persons of color privileges traditionally White territory depends on the individual, I suppose. There are some things I could answer "yes," that some other persons of color would answer "no," but I still cannot answer most because of my race--not of my socioeconomic status.

My statement: "but I also know that there will always be someone who refuses to change because their hate has consumed them and because they do, in fact, get a sense of satisfaction and pleasure from their being a beneficiary of white skin privilege. " and your statement: "For me there will never be a time where all people are equal - at least based on race/religion/creed...never." are pretty much the same, unless, of course you mean yours as an indication that you are a racist by the definition I gave in my earlier post. I don't think you meant this that way though. If you did, ugh. If not, then I will just say that we wound up pretty much ending this 2-way discussion on somewhat common ground and I'm done talking about it....i'm just tired. Thanks for the exchange.

Your example falls apart here when considered by class. Where I grew up, those of us who showed our social class (by not having the best clothes/upkeep or "rich culture" were followed around being suspected of being thiefs solely based on social class. (it's not fun, I wouldn't suggest it). Would someone who is black by is visibly well-to-do be followed around? Perhaps... *ponders* you're right, this isn't as simple....

I guess the difference is - you can always pretend to be a different social class by altering how you act or dress. You can't really pretend to be a different race.

But, I would be (and am) followed around suspected of being a thief solely based on my race, as can be said for my Southeast Asian, Latino, and Middle Eastern friends. This is regardless of my dress or other superficial ways class can be expressed. I'm a pretty conservative dresser, yet I am hounded in stores because---you guessed it--I am a person of color. You could probably dress the same way and be okay, another aspect of white privilege.

Like I said, it depends on the person. I was raised to dress and speak in a certain way because others would discount my opinions or attitudes because of my color. Regardless of class, were you brought up that way? Probably not.

Plus, I think now mainstream society is used to people, especially middle to upper-middle class white youths dressing or acting in certain ways to "downplay" one's class.

Why did I read this thread???? *le sigh*
 

Just a few comments...

Some of the comments in this thread prove the very notion of white skin privilege. White skin privilege allows for a detachment from racial issues. I do not care what you have heard, seen, and studied. If you are a white person in America (I'm focusing on this country), you have no clue how deep the problem is.

I am appalled by the comparisons of African Americans and various immigrant groups. We have a very distinctive history. First of all, we are not immigrants! Several people made a point of comparing African Americans to African immigrants. Immigrants come to a country by their own free will. Big difference. You cannot say, "Sure slavery was bad, but it's over. You people need to get it together. Other people have done it...what's wrong with you guys!" Which is essentially what people's comments amount to. You cannot quantify the damage caused by 400 years of slavery.


Lastly, as E06 stated, people are not addressing the question posed at the beginning of the thread. It's turned into a rant against the disenfranchised.

Re: Why did I read this thread???? *le sigh*
 

Errr..are African immigrants not "African American" once they receive their citizenship? What about children of African immigrants. Many are American by birth. Are they not "African American" too?

Re: Re: Why did I read this thread???? *le sigh*
 

You are being technical. Well, of course Africans upon receiving their citizenship are African Americans. However, typically when the term is used Americans of African descent (whose ancestors endured the horrors of the Middle Passage) are the group being referenced.

Re: Why did I read this thread???? *le sigh*
 

I agreed with everything you and E06 said, except for this. When we think this way, we are using the past as an excuse for not getting further ahead.