Earlier someone mentioned that their system seemed almost self-selecting...it was that way on my campus too. Recruitment was second semester, so there was plenty of time for everyone to get acquainted. It used to bother me when the upperclassmen who worked freshman registration would stand there and say, "Yep, she's going to be a Zeta. The one in the blue? Phi Mu material." etc...


I *hate* the fact that people are judged by their weight. :mad: I would rather have "fat" sister than a bitchy one any day of the week.

On picking our girls for the fraternity boys: It happens, unfortunately. Everytime you say, about a rushee, "Awww, she's so cute!" (and mean it in terms of looks and not personality) you're enforcing it. For those of us who are heterosexual, which is most of us in the sorority system, why do we care if our sisters are beautiful on the outside? We don't, unless it's to impress the guys.

And yeah, it sucks. But unless every single woman in the sorority system at your school decides to reject that viewpoint, it's not going to change. And since most of the girls at the top of the looks pyramid like being the favorites, it's unlikely to happen.

On my size-ism on rush at some schools: Obviously I can't speak for every school, but here's the problem with rushing and being overweight at a campus like mine: of COURSE everyone wants a sister with a great personality over one who is beautiful and b*tchy. But the problem is that, in a rush like this, you might be a bit chubby and have a great personality -- but the majority of the girls going through have great personalities and are beautiful and skinny to boot. So you have an automatic handicap to overcome in order to get into the more competitive sororities. Does that mean you won't get a bid? Of course not -- 9 times out of 10 a sorority would rather give a bid to the girl with the great personality who's a little overweight than the one who's beautiful but annoying or mean or tacky. But you're not just competing with annoying, mean, tacky, beautiful, skinny girls -- you're also competing with gracious, funny, enthusiastic, beautiful, skinny girls. Depending on how great your personality is, it may or may not be enough to get you into the house of your dreams.

But as stated, this isn't just a problem with rush, it's a problem with life. You will run into variations of this problem over and over again throughout your life -- not just getting the sorority you want, but getting the guy, getting the job . . . It sucks. It's not fair. That's been established. But what do we do about it from here?

Maybe I was a freak but I never looked at a girl and said "Oh my God, if she pledges then maybe the Phi Sigmas will mix with us!!" Yes it was nice to have nice looking girls - everyone likes being around attractive people, same or opposite sex, that's an established biological fact - but if she was stupid or mean she was out of there in a heartbeat no matter how stunning she was.

If you are choosing girls based on how the fraternities look at them you might as well put red velvet on your walls and call yourselves a whorehouse. Because that's what an establishment is that selects women based on their "value" where men are concerned.

At NCSU- Most of the sisters went to high school with the PNM. Its a fight to load their chapter with those girls that they know and then there are spaces left for those during rush. If you aren't from Charlotte or Raleigh, you are at a disadvantage because you don't have friends from high school in certain sororities or the girls don't know who you are and your family (might know a big brother)

"Size-ism" (is that a word?) is most definitely a problem in schools around here. I see many, many rush booklets and a couple of years ago, I saw one sorority's page that featured a shot with several very large sisters. Given the fact that this was a competitive school and that rushees are only 18 or so, I told my husband that that sorority had just shot themselves in the foot. Maybe they were trying to make a statement about their individuality--who knows?

Anyway, I asked the PNM from that school about it a few months later and she said that sorority didn't take any pledges in formal or open rush.:(

Size/looks does play a role in selection... however let's not forget that it is hard for a chapter to cut girls. It's not like ALL sisters sit around after parties making their lists like "Oh that girl was wearing pants that I KNOW I saw in Walmart last week I can't believe she wears Walmart clothes... or... oh yeah Suzy Smith, she was kinda chubby the boys won't like her" (at least I should hope not)
It is ALMOST always a tough decision on who to cut and we do have to see these women around who didnt' get bids. I know at least for me (becuase this just happened to me) When I'm in Target, wearing letters no less, and the girl at the camera counter turns around to help me, and it's a girl who just came to COB events and ended up not getting a bid... I feel kinda akward and bad... no matter the reason why we ended up not extending this woman a bid.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though people may make cuts for shallow reasons sometimes.... it's usually NEVER done in a spirit of meanness (at least I should hope not, and I know my chapter always remains very respectful when we are discussing potential sisters.

Is it possible to cut for shallow reasons without that automatically being considered mean? Isn't mean and acting shallowly almost synonymous?

I don't care if we actly meanly per se . . . but I hate to sugar coat it :)

I think sometimes if you haven't gotten to know someone or if you have too many women coming back, you have to cut for shallow reasons.

This whole thread has gotten off track of what James was trying to say because someone decided to share their repulsive views and make the rest of us sick as well. What James ORIGNALLY said or was trying to say is, just doing everything right is not enough. You have to have something that makes you memorable and makes you stand out. Maybe simple inoffensiveness and doing what everyone else did got you over in high school but in college, it stops working.

I think the number of sororites out there who are straight up saying, "We have to get the beautiful girls or the Sig Eps won't mix with us!" is low. But pandering to what the frats want is such an ingrained part of the sorority rush process that I don't think most women even realize that that's what's going on. That is one of the major feminist criticisms of the rush process -- and one of the most valid, I think. (I originally typed "vapid" . . . Freudian slip!) It's just come to be accepted that being beautiful helps you get into a sorority, and most of us realize that good lucks are one of the things we look for in rushees (along with, and hopefully in most cases secondary to, good personalities and good manners) . . . and I don't believe for a second that "people like being surrounded by good looking people" is the main reason for that.

There is a reason that almost no campuses have a "fat fraternity" but almost every campus has a "fat sorority."

Part of this has grown out of the fact that mixers form the major part of most sorority social lives, but frat parties form an equally major part of most fraternity social lives. If the sororities aren't popular with the fraternities, the social aspect of their dues is going to waste because they won't be able to mix. But if the fraternities aren't popular with the sororities, all they have to do is throw a party with free beer and all the freshman girls will come a-running in their tube tops and miniskirts. ;) Sororities are, unfortunately, just more dependant on fraternities than fraternities are on them for a successful social life. Which means that part of their membership selection criteria will, more often than not, pander to that unless they are able to reinvent the idea of the typical sorority social events.

This is going to sound hokey, but I thought dealing with getting cut during rush was going to be the hardest part of sorority life -- it wasn't. Sitting in on membership selection and having to cut girls whom I had never met or letting my sisters cut girls I genuinely liked was so much harder.

And, in my opinion, that reason is not the Greek System, but the values of beauty placed on women in society. We had a semester in Phi Psi, at FSU, where the phrase "you're fat" became similar to "aloha." It was used as a toungue-in-cheek greeting and farewell. This would never happen in a women's organization. Men who gain weight are not devalued in the same way that women are. There are weight issues with men in fraternities, but it is simply a health issue and not an identity issue.

Also, the point about sororities needing fraternities for social activities, to the extent experienced by today's undergraduates, is less than a 20 year old development. "Risk management" did not exist in the Greek world in 1980. Sororities, to the best of my knowledge, have not increased the premium on looks as their dependence on fraternities as social outlets has increased. Consider that women are more likely to dress well for other women than for men. This is a reality in society. I believe that sororities simply reflect society in this aspect of the sorority recruitment value system.

I agree -- I don't think that any of the problems that the sorority system struggles with are anything that you can't see in the rest of society. It's just that in the Greek system they are mirrored in our unique little customs like sorority rush and pinning ceremonies and dirty serenades.

James, what a hurtful thing to post on here! :(

I never went through NPC rush but I know of one particular girl...one of my SAI sisters....who did.

And she was cut from all five sororities.

Must really be something wrong with her, right? Some big flaw, she must be a really bad girl.

Well, not so. She got cut because she is very shy. A VERY sweet girl, but not real outgoing. She's beautiful, sweet, funny, kind, etc...and everyone that knows her loves her. She was just too shy during Rush, and she knows it.

But shouldn't we be held to a higher standard? Greek organizations talk about "our values"... maybe we should live up to them. There will come a day when we're alumns and fraternity boys won't make a difference.

True - if we wanted to have a party, we had one and invited whoever. This is the main reason I hate the sorority alcohol policies, they seem to not understand that this doesn't make people drink less, it makes them dependent on others (usually fraternities) for alcohol. My sorority social life was definitely not dependent on mixers - we did not have them every week, but we certainly had other outlets. That's another policy that sucks - the whole "3 sisters in one place is an event" crap. So if alphabug, LionTamer and I went to a party at the wrestling house, it would all of a sudden be an ASA event. Totally @#$%ing asanine.

did you not read my last post or James' original post??????? That is EXACTLY what we said.

Read what the original point of this thread was, not the path it has taken.