I ditto this.

But I also think that, as men (and you, James, as a northern man), you shouldn't make too many assumptions on what sorority rush at an extremely competitive, traditional Southern school. If not run exactly right, there will be a lot of bitching from the other sorority women on campus and from alums that the new sorority doesn't have enough respect for tradition, that the girls in the new sorority aren't _______ enough (whether or not this is true is irrelevant, their reputation will get the better of them whether or not it is true), etc.

You're looking at sororities from a fraternity man perspective, which makes sense for a lot of northern or smaller schools. You assume that if the girls are pretty and fun and nice enough, they will be popular with the fraternities, which will ensure numbers success. It seems very clear to me, even as a northerner, that in the south this is not the case. You could very easily get many of the most beautiful and intelligent and nice GDIs on campus to join the sorority, and that would work . . . at first. But in rush the next year, the majority of typical Southern rushees (who seem to value reputation above all) would dismiss the new sorority as not traditional enough. Which means the new sorority would become dependent on non-traditional rushees and non-traditional methods of rush, which is basically equivalent to death at large Southern Greek schools. Winning over the fraternities and maybe the GDIs is not enough -- in the South you also have to win over the other sorority women on campus and the alums in the area, which would not happen if you are not making quota during rush. And you will not make quota during rush if you haven't got the respect of other sorority women on campus and the alums in the area. So it's a catch-22.

Perhaps the new sorority could survive this way, dependent on COB and non-traditional rushees, but they would probably never become a "successful chapter" at Ole Miss.

I agree with you that I certainly don't think expansion would be impossible. I think it would certainly be possible with ADPi or ZTA, even despite past failures. But it would have to be undertaken very, very carefully, watched over very, very carefully in its formative years, and would have to be strong from the get-go. If you can't get 200 amazing women to form the colony to start with, don't bother. Ditto on an antebellum sorority mansion and a sorority with a strong Southern rep.

Saying "It can't be done" is usually the prelude to a self-fulfilling prophecy. I challenge anyone to read The Art of War by Sun Tzu and then post here that it can't be done. The barrier to entry is high, but not insurmountable.

Kappa Alpha Theta chartered, for the first time, at Ole Miss in 1979. What has changed at Ole Miss in the last 24 years that now makes it impossible to colonize successfully?

I don't think that the problem is people not understanding Ole Miss, I think that there is a two part problem to the dearth of proposed solutions; Ole Miss greeks with no other greek experience, and non-Ole Miss greeks who are shocked at how extreme the Ole Miss environment is. The solution is there. Theta found it 24 years ago.

Sorry about that -- I had forgotten that ZTA's closing was so recent, so I agree with you in that respect.

But if ADPi's closing was not, I still think that they are an option.

* Edited to add:

In re-reading the thread: ADPi's closing also seems a little recent for a successful re-establishment. Perhaps in a few more years it would work out. DZ is still a possibility in a few years but right now they have other large colonizations to work with. You mentioned AXO -- what about them? I know they don't have the stereotypically strong "Southern" roots of ADPi or ZTA, but neither are they weak in the South. They remind me of Theta in that regard.

sugar and spice made a lot of the points I was thinking of...

Could you keep an NPC chapter running with a non-traditional housing situation and non-traditional type women and a non-traditional rush? By success, I mean could you break even, have enough women to run chapter business (IMO, 50 is plenty, and there could probably be more) and keep the interest up year after year? I don't know, that depends on how many people enter the school who would embrace that concept.

But I have the sneaking suspicion that if you are of that sort of non-traditional bent, your butt isn't going anywhere near Ole Miss. And how many people would want to be in an NPC sorority that would not give you the Ole Miss NPC experience.

So could the chapter successfully function? Yes, I think so. Would they be on a par with the other chapters? No. Would a national sorority want to be the "wannabes" of the Ole Miss system? Probably not.

What's changed is that Ole Miss has had 24 years to build up a reputation as a school that is not friendly to establishing new sororities. PNMs, sorority women, fraternity men, GDIs and alums have all had 24 years to get it into their head that Ole Miss has had ONE successful sorority colonization in the past 45 or so years. When Theta colonized that was not the case.

The longer a campus goes without successful colonization, the longer people have to start believing in the myth that this can't be done. And yes, this is a self-fulfilling prophesy. But those familiar with the LSU "Alpha curse" will understand how it works. In order to undo the self-fulfilling part of the prophesy, you will have to change the minds of the majority of the sorority women, PNMs and alums in the area before you can attempt colonization, and that will be tough. Not impossible, but tough.

No harm taken darling! If a PNM would like a "smaller" house, then AOII, Theta, Pi Phi, and Kappa are the ones for them! Yes we still have almost 200+ members but we are "smaller" and we are more into taking women from outside of Mississippi and the "deep south." For example, my chapter of AOII has a sophomore from Modesto, CA, two VA sisters, three girls from South Carolina, one from Chapel Hill, tons from GA, about 8 TX girls, a few IL girls, MO girls, LA girls, TN girls, KY girls, one from PA and NJ, and other great states in the Country. One of my best friends while I was collegiate was a sister with me from NJ and another from Ohio. Don't get me wrong though, there are girls in other "typically MS houses" from New Mexico, Florida, etc....Also, think about this, the majority of our students are from MS, TN, TX, LA, AL!

Also, to agree with TippieChick who was a ZTA at Ole Miss...I don't know why they left to be honest. I had two girls from my highschool go ZTA and they could have been anything they wants, the picked ZTA because they were legacies but also because they felt at home there. I know for a fact that they were beautiful, very smart, kind women who had class and grace. I thought their last two years at Ole Miss they got some awesome PNMs and I don't understand why they left. Some said it was for money and other said it was because of numbers and their national's did not feel they could compete with other chapters who were larger. However, I think they could have stayed and competed and GROWN. They had a gorgeous house on Old Sorority Row and they have and had great alumnae support since they were founded here in 1939 I believe. It is unfortunate that we lost them but I hope one day they come back. I know that it has affected the Greek community. I know for a fact ZTA at Miss State is awesome and at other Southern school, so perhaps in 20 years or sooner we can get them back. ADPi has the alumnae still here and around MS, it is just getting them back to campus.

Also, everyone keep in mind the new service sorority, Omega Phi Alpha is doing WELL and they are sort of filling the nitch for those who want a smaller sisterhood with less cost and less members. Also, it is a great way for other sorority members to join and meet women that might have gotten lost in the Recruitment syster and could be possible COB's.

Also, a final note folks, is that I don't think any NPC sorority is willing to take the risk and financial committment of starting a sorority here or bringing one back here. Even without a house, the cost of a major PR Blitz could be pricey and I would think that they would have to have an edge that the other sororities don't have.....just a thought...sorry to write so much....this is a hot topic for me, since I'm at Ole Miss working right now, well actually it is dead in the office today...anyway

Oh I forgot this, there are awesome non-greek women out there here! My roommate was not in a sorority, she could have been she would have been a 3x at Ole Miss Tri Delta Legacy, but she didn't want to do the sorority thing because she felt it wasn't for her. She is smart, in grad school here make straight A's and gorgeous. She is also a very giving woman and kind and a good Christian....there are tons of awesome women who are not in a sorority at Ole Miss.

The comments that OleMissGlitter posted seem to answer what I was wondering.

Granted I have limited understanding, but it seems that a new chapter is going to be small for almost a generation before it can fully compete because you need legacies from that chapter to come through, and slowly you will build up. If the school is so entrenched in tradition, it seems like the usual 2-3 years of major national support won't work. Rather you need to pull through for about 25 years and when those legacies start to come through you might be able to fill the MS quota that is needed. But from the ground up you need to have a unusual approach. Is it illegal for an NPC to get its area alumnae to help push their daughters to a school so they can form a colony? Then you have MS and legacies to start with... (though this is probably highly illegal)

It just all seems so foreign, I just wonder how many women who would like to go greek, don't because the school is so steeped in this massive tradition and protocol. (I'm honestly not judging, just trying to fathom this world that is called Ole Miss.) I think these organizations offer great things to the women they fit.

I think there are some women who do not go through recruitment because they feel they won't fit in or they aren't the "right look." However, I encourage women to try because with recs and with our recruitment 6weeks into the school year, they have time to look at the GLOs and to meet sorority members. That way they can decide if it is the best thing for them. Obviously, this works because tons of girls sign up late, literally the day before, who did not sign up at the end of May when the forms go out. I think that there are also other non-Greek groups, such as academic groups and theatre troupes and comedy troupes and Church groups who met weekly who fill any void a woman might have if she is not in a sorority. We have tons of student orgs, like any other university, so therefore, I feel that even those who don't join a sorority they might get a sorority-type feeling living in the dorm, joining a religious org, or just volunteering at our local Leap Frog chapter to read books to kids. Yes, Greek life is a big part of Ole Miss, but I think anyone can be someone here if they are not Greek. We've had Presidents of the Student Body who were not Greek, breaking down barriers, and we have many other heads of student orgs who were not Greek. I think what Ole Miss is trying to do lately with having recruitment 6 weeks into the year is to have a balance between Greek members and non-Greek members. However, outsiders of Ole Miss must realize that Greeks have been very prominent since Ole Miss' founding in 1848. Some of our biggest alumni were members of GLO's here. However, I also know that we have many other alumni who were not Greek who donate money. I think what we have at Ole Miss is truly unique and I think the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill had a student do a disseration on us once, our Greek Life that is....I remember hearing about that. I also know we have had some of our own PhD candidates write on that sort of subject. It is quite strange that our campus is sometimes dictated by Greek Life. For example since I've been here (1996) the Homecoming queen and Miss Ole Miss have been greek. I don't know if that is because Greeks are wonderful at backing each other and supporting each other or their own member when they run for something. Either way you look at this, in order to truly understand our Greek System you either need to study it as an outsider for a long period of time or matriculate and pledge and become a member of a sorority or a fraternity. It is not the normal Greek System, but we are similar in one way, that all of our houses hold our letters close to our hearts and we all try to follow our GLOs' ideals. Sorry to go off on a tangent!

I think that another thing to point out is that Theta has an exemplary reputation as far as support and resources for new colonies - I believe they have never lost a colony. They came in with that behind them. I can't think of another NPC I've ever heard that about.

From the sounds of it, then Ole Miss. is unto it self. A very Cliquish School Southern Born and Bred till death do you part school!:)

There is nothing wrong with that at all. If that is the case, then just leave well enough alone and go about the business of being a Greek!

It would be fantastic if a lot of New Greek Soroities were going to go there just as Fraternities. It is a Status thing! LXA is Not there but at Miss. State.

But, the start up cost to do this would be prohibative for the if come of making it.

Whether anyone knows it or not, because of the Risk Management Cost of Insurance, all Greek Orgs are running a tight budget!

russel, you amaze me coming from a Northern State how much you seem to know about Southern Greeks:confused:

I do not beleive you are a Greek Social Organization Memember, is that correct?

Yes, I am Educated, with the School Sheep Skin from a State U. not one of the Iviest Of Leagues finest!:eek:

But it seems that there are a lot of schools out there who do give a great education to its students!

One of the finest Medical Schools it in St. Louois Mo. Harder to get into than many of the so called "Finest"!

I went to Florida State, which is in Tallahassee. Tallahassee, unlike Miami, is part of the Deep South.

Phi Kappa Psi is a social fraternity, a charter member of the NIC, and we are the second oldest fraternity in your alma mater's state.

We are also the second oldest GLO at Ole Miss, having originally chartered in 1857.

Mr. Earp,
I am pretty sure we use to have a chapter of Lambda Chi Alpha, but I could be wrong....I might be confusing my yearbooks up. I love to look at older yearbooks from the early 1900s and I've been through most of Ole Miss' and then I found some of my great-grandmother and grandfather who graduated from Tulane. Maybe it was Tulane....I'll try to remember. OH and isn't there a chapter of Lambda Chi at Milsaps College in Jackson, MS? I think they have a swimming pool....

OleMiss, yes, Milsaps is the only other Chapter in Mississippi!

Or as My ex lady friend used to MIcrookedletter crooked Letter, I Hump back Humpback i!

Of course, she was from Tenn!

russel, thank you for the update!:)

You are still amazing!:D

Simply amazing!:D

There's also a Lambda Chi Alpha chapter at Mississippi State University. The Lambda Chis there were a bunch of nice guys. :)

So I am trying hard to avoid studying for my med surg final and I thought I would compare the two chapters at Ole Miss that I am most familiar with for obvious reasons. My numbers might be off a bit, however, I realized (though I already knew) that it really backed OleMissGlitter's point:

Delta Gamma (Not only founded in Oxford, but a GLO with strong Mississippi ties)
260 (+/-) members... 62% are from Mississippi; 33% are from TN, TX, LA, AL (though I included Georgia) and 5% are from other states.

Pi Beta Phi (There are only two chapters in MS):
236 (+/-) members... 24% are from Mississippi, 51% from TN, TX, LA, AL, GA and 25% from other states.